What Nobody Tells You

Welcome to What Nobody Tells You. I'm your host, James Farino. And today on What Nobody Tells You, our guest is Caroline Casey. Welcome, Caroline.

Caroline Casey (00:10)
Thank you.

James Ferrigno+ (00:11)
And you said you'd like to introduce yourself. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (00:14)
Well well, I think we should all define ourselves and it's an ongoing

thing. So currently I call myself an anarcho entheo astroanimist, right? So just for fun. So I'm I'm an astrologer with a show on Pacifica for thirty years, visionary activist show. It's anything we need to have, a global democracy and where's a terrible problem and who's doing an ingenious solution.

James Ferrigno+ (00:39)
Fantastic. Yeah, I've I've I've been listening

Caroline Casey (00:40)
Gathering voices at all.

James Ferrigno+ (00:42)
most of that thirty years.

Caroline Casey (00:43)
Wow.

James Ferrigno+ (00:44)
yeah. Great, great show. you have a history of studying mythology,

What is it about mythology that captured your imagination when you were young?

Caroline Casey (00:53)
Well, let's bring it very young and and and then also very now. It's like if

James Ferrigno+ (00:59)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (00:59)
we know the stories and the myths in place, we can participate, and if we don't, we're possessed. So for instance,

James Ferrigno+ (01:06)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (01:07)
the Strait of Hormuz is named after Uhura Mazda, the god of light in Zoroastrianism. And the story is that Ahura Mazda, the the god of light, takes on the forces of darkness in the Strait of Hormuz, right?

So th there's no simple

James Ferrigno+ (01:22)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (01:23)
way to go, you know, whatever. It's like, well, let's change this myth, let's step into it. You know, but but you know now globally the the the the Odyssey is in the memosphere, right? Just because it's I think it's made a billion dollars

James Ferrigno+ (01:37)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (01:38)
already. So that's useful. and the Odyssey introduces many things like hubris, right? Where where humans overstep

And we might think of that as the I was just listening to a great podcast, the the Nerd Reich, which is the danger of Silicon Valley and Palantir and all of that for information hoovering. and they were saying, you know, the Greeks had a concept of hubris, and either that myth is correct, in which case, you know, Silicon Valley is due for a big downfall, or it's it's not, and we're due for a big downfall. So either way. And then I

James Ferrigno+ (02:16)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (02:16)
love the mysterious guidance.

for all of us, just as a mystery, you know, in the Odyssey when I haven't seen the movie, but I'm about to. But but when Ulysses is getting blown off course, on his way home, Tibresius, the blind prophet in the underworld, tells him the story that he needs to know. He said, You've offended Neptune. You blinded you killed his son, the Cyclops. So here's what you must do. Here's the mysterious assignment. You must take an

James Ferrigno+ (02:45)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (02:46)
oar, a symbol of the sea

And walk it inland to where nobody's ever seen the sea before, and there build a temple to the God who's been oppressing you. It's like mysterious assignment that we might all want to contemplate, you know. And so that's what he does. He takes

James Ferrigno+ (02:58)
Mm. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (03:01)
an oar and walks it inland until somebody says, Is that a piece of a windmill? And he goes, This is the place. And there he

James Ferrigno+ (03:07)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (03:07)
builds a temple to the God who's been oppressing him. Neptune dreams, vision, imagination, water. Water reflects a reverse image, and it works.

It changes his fortunes. And his ad what who what had been his adversary, Neptune becomes his ally, sends him sweet winds and he sails for home. So a friend introduced this to me way back in the nineties

James Ferrigno+ (03:30)
Beautiful.

Caroline Casey (03:30)
and said, you know, what would it mean for all of us to walk an oar inland? You know, to take the vision to someplace it'd never been before, you know, each person listening, what what unique perspective do you have? It's like, take it somewhere new, right?

James Ferrigno+ (03:46)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (03:46)
Nobody you know, and there build a temple to the god who's been oppressing one. I mean, just mysterious, right? It's an enigma, it's a koan.

James Ferrigno+ (03:55)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (03:56)
But but to go, you know, do you have problems with money? Or do we have problems with tyranny? Or do we you know, whatever it is, and how do we reverse that? So so I like that extract, you know, from from the Odyssey as as it's yeah, and many have you seen the movie?

James Ferrigno+ (04:12)
I have not seen the movie yet.

Caroline Casey (04:13)
Right.

Yeah. No, it it's it it's it's it well it it's in it's captures the imagination now globally, so that's worthwhile. So so mythology, well always, you know, myths, fairy tales, you know, and then and then you know, and it's very important now, you know, many people read The Lord of the Rings and all, which is where Palantir comes from, right? So the the

James Ferrigno+ (04:37)
Uh-huh.

Caroline Casey (04:38)
the tech people you know, take the evil

The evil wizard and the palantir is the far seeing s stone that sees everything. And that's what they're naming it after. And it's like and it it they have to do some fancy weird No, we're the heroes, even though we're the evil wizard spying on everybody, right? And so so so we're gonna so so the idea of you know, myth being hoovered, and how do we reclaim it? And then things are so

It's like the gods or whatever we want to say are making it very simple. The the world is on fire. I mean, just on on every level, literally.

James Ferrigno+ (05:20)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (05:23)
And and so what is our responsibility, you know, to to cool it out and to slow it down, right? Because it's this hot

James Ferrigno+ (05:35)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (05:36)
reactivity. So mythology teaches us to cooperate with nature, you know, and

We might say all the gods and folk heroes are metaphoric animations of intrinsic intelligence in nature. So

James Ferrigno+ (05:49)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (05:50)
in Centuria, Obatala is sort of Saturn wise leadership, you know, and he's called the keeper of the cool head. And

James Ferrigno+ (05:59)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (05:59)
our word cool in America, popularized by jazz musicians, is a Yoruba word, kulu kulu, that meant completely responsible. The cool

James Ferrigno+ (06:09)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (06:09)
guy takes care of the community.

the cool musician. It's just the musician, the instrument, and the divine. No, no performative, just and

James Ferrigno+ (06:19)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (06:20)
and and in Yoruba, as in English, it also means cool, like temperature. And so they say to keep a cool head. And we can all do this right

James Ferrigno+ (06:29)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (06:29)
now, to literally imagine one's head as cool temperature, putting all the heat in the head down to where it belongs, which is the heart. So cool head, warm heart.

Opposite

of road rage, hot head, cold heart, right? Cool head, warm heart that allows all

James Ferrigno+ (06:48)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (06:49)
of us to enter into hot situations as agents of cool out rather than caught up in the reaction. And if we Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (06:57)
Absolutely.

Yeah, I know I've noticed some of those things in my own life over the years as well. I mean really having a hot head is always a symbol of being ill. You know, just of having physical illness and like bringing that down. I'll notice with myself, like just during the day, I don't feel well. my head is hot. So just just consciously bringing that energy down and cooling the head is, you know, thinking about cool things. I remember you had mentioned maybe years ago, probably a long time ago.

About if someone was hotheaded writing their name down on a piece of paper and then putting it in a the ice cube tray and freezing it.

Caroline Casey (07:37)
no, that's

that's sort of Santeria in Santa

James Ferrigno+ (07:41)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (07:41)
in Santeria, all respect, yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (07:47)
so and I don't necessarily recommend this, but we but

James Ferrigno+ (07:50)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (07:51)
all all ritual is literalized metaphor. So my friend Marcelino,

James Ferrigno+ (07:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Caroline Casey (07:57)
a Santero, who met with a tragic end, but all honor to him, he he said if somebody is behaving badly in the neighborhood.

You write their name on a piece of paper and you put it in the ice cube tray in the in the freezer

James Ferrigno+ (08:09)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (08:10)
to cool them out.

James Ferrigno+ (08:12)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (08:12)
And it it's interesting. I mean, I I've used it on occasion, right? we're

James Ferrigno+ (08:17)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (08:18)
we're dealing with larger forces now than just, you know, the rude the rude neighbor, you know, but it's so it's worth

James Ferrigno+ (08:23)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (08:23)
an interesting try. but but ally etiquette r says we're allowed to set in motion any blessing that we would be the happy recipient, right? That's so that's

James Ferrigno+ (08:33)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (08:34)
Would

I mind if I were abusing power, somebody writing my name on a piece of paper and sticking it in the freezer? No, sure, what the hell? Let's let's let's go ahead.

James Ferrigno+ (08:40)
No. That sounds good.

Caroline Casey (08:42)
and and in dealing with tyranny.

Right. In dealing with tyranny pondering

James Ferrigno+ (08:48)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (08:49)
this, you know, because it's it's not just one person or one group. It's it's everywhere in in complex cahoots, so it behooves all of us to get organized as well. But I don't know if you ever saw a very trippy show called What We Do in the Shadows. It's a satire about vampires. Satire Right, no no, it's very trippy. I

James Ferrigno+ (09:05)
yes. I've I've watched it through a couple of times. Yeah, that's I love that show. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (09:10)
can't remember the name, but th there's a there's an there of the guy who's an energy vampire and he

James Ferrigno+ (09:16)
yeah.

Caroline Casey (09:16)
He says,

you know, he he he feeds, right? And he says I can be low on energy and all I need to do is go on the internet and within five minutes I can have hundreds of people furious with me and I feed on it. I feed on it. And whatever his name is, I g I I I try and keep it there. But something,

James Ferrigno+ (09:31)
Yeah. Yeah, that's what he does. God, what is this? I know it.

Caroline Casey (09:35)
something I have it in a drawer on a piece of paper somewhere, but anyway, but but but it it's a very outrageous series. It's just it's just

James Ferrigno+ (09:43)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (09:44)
dark humor, but really pretty great.

But but this this character, the energy vampire, also feeds by boring people. Right? He goes, did I ever

James Ferrigno+ (09:53)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (09:54)
tell you about the first time I got high? You know, then anyway, and and people get bored and he feeds on that. But then he he discovers how to split himself into two of him.

James Ferrigno+ (10:05)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (10:07)
And they bore each other to death. So

my with Trump and the tyrants, I go, may they meet each other. You know,

James Ferrigno+ (10:16)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (10:16)
tyrants, Trump wouldn't put up with himself for a minute if he met himself, right? And and I think that's a a fair

James Ferrigno+ (10:22)
yeah.

Caroline Casey (10:22)
thing. And even, you know, when we meet ourselves, it's like sometimes I go, you know, certain situations going, I'm not sure I would like myself if I met myself now. Mostly, yes, but sometimes not. But but I think it's a fair game, you know. And

You

know, each time Trump was elected, I threw the Yi Ching and the Yi Ching both times answered corruption and pestilence. And it said, This is the darkest

James Ferrigno+ (10:47)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (10:48)
of medicines of of of bad magic, and it's in which you put five venomous creatures in a jar until one of them kills and eats the other. So I'm like, That's a pretty accurate assessment, Yi Ching. That's pretty good. So it's like, May they take each may they meet each other, may they take each other down. Which, you know, cause they're all

vying, you know, with each other. So I, you know, and then we step out of the way and create a culture we want. You know, that's that's one way to play it. So you know,

James Ferrigno+ (11:15)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (11:16)
we're convening at this hot, dangerous time. And then, you know, with mythology, it it's it's always been really a guide to how to cooperate with nature or let all natural facts be social strategy metaphors. So in in giving a talk, I was talking about

Let's slow way down in order to speed up. And these regenerative farmers and people running vineyards said, you know, all of your metaphors are are facts and I go, I love that. Like what? They go, Well, when you slow water down with berms and such, when you run it through a field, the more you slow it down, the faster it infiltrates. And it's like, that's great. That's great.

James Ferrigno+ (12:00)
Mm. Ooh, I like that.

Caroline Casey (12:02)
So when we slow down, we infiltrate.

And and I think, you know, for all of us now, we're all kind of working on this, which is if we like freedom, let's say we do, everybody, you know, just you know, and democracy, let's let's say we do.

James Ferrigno+ (12:17)
Yeah, yeah.

Caroline Casey (12:18)
You know, to react to anything is not free. It's that hot reactivity again. To cultivate an

James Ferrigno+ (12:24)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (12:25)
ever expanding repertoire of responses is to ally ourselves with nature's genius. You know, so once

James Ferrigno+ (12:33)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (12:33)
again, you know, so

So things that that I've found wonderful of late, you know, a friend of mine all was learning, always learning, and they they went to a lecture given by an owl. I mean, w there was a human, but with an owl that was being rehabbed. I think

James Ferrigno+ (12:47)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (12:48)
I think it was a bard owl. And the human said, This owl can hear every one of your forty heartbeats in this room. And then it can shape its head feathers into like a satellite array and focus on one.

And go, that's a great skill. Let's let's play with that. You know,

James Ferrigno+ (13:11)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (13:12)
you know, what is it to be human aside from our appalling manners? And it might be the opportunity responsibility to borrow qualities of intelligence from florophana fungi, you know. And so so for the owl, I think, you know, when we're

James Ferrigno+ (13:27)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (13:27)
you know, to to to be with so social media like for forty heartbeats, forty hundred things, forty it's and then one.

Anyway, I'm currently in love with that.

James Ferrigno+ (13:37)
Yeah. I mean martial

arts does that borrowing so many things from animals.

Caroline Casey (13:43)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (13:43)
Yeah. You know, qigong is all the different poses are animals, a lot of

Caroline Casey (13:47)
Do you do you do it, Chicong?

James Ferrigno+ (13:49)
I do a little bit. I don't wanna proclaim myself as a huge Qi gong doer, but I do, you know, a little.

Caroline Casey (13:55)
Now that's great because, you know, as as you know, and then I I lived with an actual coyote for nineteen years, two months, two weeks, two days. and the the only creature that ever defeated Stella Coyote, because she would coyotes come up from behind and and they go, nip your nip your Achilles dendon or with an animal. But it was a

James Ferrigno+ (14:18)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (14:19)
praying mantis. Right? And there's the in in Chigong, there's the praying mantis form.

And she couldn't get behind it. Right? The praying mantis is

a is qigong form, right? And she couldn't get behind

James Ferrigno+ (14:31)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (14:31)
it. And then after thirty minutes of trying to get behind it to disable it and kill it, she she

James Ferrigno+ (14:37)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (14:38)
bowed in respect and trotted off. Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (14:40)
Really? Wow.

Caroline Casey (14:41)
That was the only time yeah. Otherwise I would have had to rescue the creature or she would have eaten it. Yeah. But praying mantis form, right? Don't you know again,

James Ferrigno+ (14:51)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (14:51)
omnivit don't don't

If if you can prevent your opponent from getting behind you, then the coyote might bow in respect and leave you alone.

James Ferrigno+ (15:05)
Wow. Lot to think about there.

Caroline Casey (15:08)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (15:09)
Let me ask a couple more basic questions and then we'll get into the more current stuff. I'm sure you've been asked this before. you studied with Joseph Campbell. What was one of the things that you learned from him?

Caroline Casey (15:20)
Well,

I yeah, th that might be it's not eggs an exaggeration. I st I studied the Grail Legend with him and so

James Ferrigno+ (15:26)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (15:27)
as a tiny person, you know, when you say I'd you get an interested

James Ferrigno+ (15:29)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (15:30)
in mythology and divination and all, it's like, well, first in third grade, my classmate Billy Adler brought a magic eight ball to to school. And I like, that's so cool you know. I

James Ferrigno+ (15:41)
Wow.

Caroline Casey (15:41)
I don't know if you do you remember the magic eight ball?

James Ferrigno+ (15:44)
yeah, I had one. Yeah. I was really addicted to that thing. Yeah. It's decidedly so.

Caroline Casey (15:46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Signs point to no, signs point to yes. And I'm like, divination, right? And and and I will say

that in third grade Billy Adler, who brought the Magic Eight Ball to class, is the first person I ever met that I knew. Like, he's gay. I d I didn't have

James Ferrigno+ (16:02)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (16:02)
the word for it, but it's like that and in a wonderful way, like he's a gentle. and then divination, you know, to to divine the pattern and align with it, you know

goes on. And so that was intriguing. And one of my great colleagues, wonderful astrologer Jeffrey Cornelius, who had his PhD in the history of divination from Cambridge, because the Brits are Tony that way, and he said, you know, we have most of the questions that people asked of the Delphic Oracle. And and and the Delphic Oracle right now is pretty pertinent, right? Because the Delphic Oracle did give one really pertinent smart ass answer.

A Greek general asked the Delphic Oracle, what will happen if I invade Persia, Iran? And the Delphic Oracle said, A great empire will fall. It will be yours, haha. Right. Anyway, so that's pertinent in the mythic news right now.

James Ferrigno+ (16:56)
huh. Uh-huh.

Caroline Casey (16:58)
but but mostly what Jeffrey said is people would ask, are our plans in accord with the gods, the pulse, the thing? You know, and if not, what should we do?

To come into accord. Very sensible. Right? So, you know, in astrology and and and language is so wonderful, disaster means against the stars when we pit our small will against the larger pulse, disaster. But the the the antidote is consider, con is with and siters the stars. So here we are. We're we're gathering

James Ferrigno+ (17:33)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (17:33)
to consider to avert greater disaster. You know, what is the pattern, you know, and and how do we?

Mm, form alliances with nature's guiding genius in the face of so much heat and so much tyranny, yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (17:49)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (17:51)
And experiment with all of our skills, you know, what scientists call junk DNA. You know, they go, here's all that's DNA, and then there's this junk stuff, and it's like, that's the collaborative kinship mythological

DNA, you scientific dingbats.

James Ferrigno+ (18:04)
Okay.

Caroline Casey (18:06)
and that's what we want to access now, all of our skills, you know, may everybody access all of our participatory skills and experiment, experiment, experiment. So, I like the phrase from aviation.

there's a phrase that's the time of useful consciousness. And and what it refers to is when you're in a plane, you're a pilot in a plane, and the oxygen's cut off, and it's the time you have before you black out. And I think that's where we are now, in this time of useful consciousness. So time to not panic, slow down and go, So what shall we do? And how shall we gather and how shall we animate the desirable guiding story? Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (18:52)
Mm, time to behave like an astronaut. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (18:57)
Maybe. Or a pile pi but yeah. Astr astrona well

James Ferrigno+ (18:58)
Powerful. Pilot, yeah.

Caroline Casey (19:01)
it yeah, that I mean that's that sure. well

James Ferrigno+ (19:05)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (19:09)
yeah, astronaut could be.

James Ferrigno+ (19:11)
Yeah,

I guess I've been watching a lot of For All Mankind, so I have that on the head.

Caroline Casey (19:15)
what's that? What what

James Ferrigno+ (19:17)
the Apple show about the realistic thing about an alternate time it's been on for about five years now. An alternate timeline where the Russians made it to the moon first, and the critical part is one of the cosmonauts is a woman and it changes

How women are viewed on Earth and changes it that aspect just changes the space race and ultimately changes a lot of history. And so it follows that timeline. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (19:46)
Huh. And w wait, what w what what's it called again?

James Ferrigno+ (19:51)
for all mankind. Which I believe is what they had written in the Apollo missions on the plaque.

Caroline Casey (19:58)
Right.

James Ferrigno+ (19:58)
and it's Ron Moore who did Battlestar Galactica and

Caroline Casey (20:02)
Mm-hmm.

James Ferrigno+ (20:03)
Star Trek Deep Space Nine and

Caroline Casey (20:05)
Right.

James Ferrigno+ (20:07)
It's incredibly well written show. Very well very well done.

Caroline Casey (20:13)
All right. And a

and you find it where? On Apple. Okay. All right.

James Ferrigno+ (20:16)
On Apple. Apple. Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (20:19)
Okay.

James Ferrigno+ (20:21)
Fanta one of the one of the most sophisticated things out there, I think. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (20:26)
Well that's that's great. And then, you know, in astrology, Pluto, Uranus and Neptune, large by symbolism, even if not mass in Pluto's case, they re represent huge forces of nature's intelligence and keepers of the whole big conversation, cultural and biological, and we could play with that a little bit. But but I love NASA's mission to Pluto was run almost entirely by women, and they were ardent. They were like,

James Ferrigno+ (20:52)
Uh-huh.

Caroline Casey (20:53)
It's a planet, damn it.

And it took nine years to get there. And it's like, that's great. You know, nine

James Ferrigno+ (20:59)
Well

Caroline Casey (20:59)
steps to the underworld. And and this wedding of science and myth. And there was a point where where the little rocket was going to go between Pluto and Charon, one of its large moons. And they said,

James Ferrigno+ (21:13)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (21:14)
we're gonna lose, you know, contact with it, and it's gonna be the loneliest little rocket in the world. But we put a coin on the rocket to pay Charon, the ferryman.

for

safe passage. Love that.

James Ferrigno+ (21:26)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (21:26)
They they put an actual little co coin on the rocket. and then they and and then

James Ferrigno+ (21:29)
Wow, nice.

Caroline Casey (21:30)
when it emerges they go, It worked. It worked. So

James Ferrigno+ (21:33)
Ha ha.

Caroline Casey (21:34)
so I love, you know, what's been falsely estranged like science and mythology and we're in this extraordinary time right now where, you know, science is proving folklore. you know, Johns Hopkins and, you know, grown up medical places are proving, you know, Silasbi mushrooms.

They increase curiosity, confidence, and kindness. And my collegist Paul Stamet says, Those are leadership qualities. It's like, Right. No, and that's what the folklore said, and now the science chimes in. It it's sort of like

James Ferrigno+ (22:05)
Mm,

yeah. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (22:08)
Well, there there was a a

couple of years ago big deal biology scientists were saying, what possible use could postmenopausal mammals be? Right? And and then they and then they they were they studying the orca whales and they're sorry, sorry, the orca matriarch in her eighties is everything. She leads

James Ferrigno+ (22:32)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (22:32)
maybe a couple feet out or a couple miles out, and what they found was

Her mere presence, you know, enhanced the longevity and well being of her pod, even if some of them no longer were part of that pod wherever they were. And they're like, We're very sorry, we're very sorry, we're sorry, we we we we said that silly hubristic nonsense thing. We we've been

James Ferrigno+ (22:53)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (22:53)
we've been we've been schooled, right? So

James Ferrigno+ (22:55)
Hmm.

Caroline Casey (22:56)
yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (22:57)
That's interesting. Yeah, I've I've noticed, I just noticed this a few weeks ago, is the number of just TV shows and movies that have like the grandmother be the wise kind of force and sometimes a very powerful character in things. And I've I'm seeing that more and more lately. So that's kind

Caroline Casey (23:16)
That's great.

James Ferrigno+ (23:16)
of in the zeitgeist.

Caroline Casey (23:18)
Well, you know, I I just got back from, or it feels like just got back, or never really got back from Big Journeys to Morocco in in in April and May, and reading this wonderful woman, Fatima Mernizi, who was a Moroccan feminist. sh the whole country went into mourning when she died. but she writes about she was born in a harem, her her mother was in a harem and and she said it was

Quirky when she went on her book tour that, you know, in a harem in the West, men were all titillated. And she goes, It's a prison, you know. But her her mother and her grandmother, her grandmother was like the voice of freedom and said, Travel, travel, be independent, but learn the Arabian Nights. Learn the stories, 'cause the stories will teach you about freedom and about the power

James Ferrigno+ (24:05)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (24:05)
of grandmothers, right? And then, of course, United States of America,

Have

you been watching the Iranian Lego videos?

James Ferrigno+ (24:17)
No, Iranian Lego?

Caroline Casey (24:19)
Yeah. they're astonishing. I it's it's it's

James Ferrigno+ (24:23)
wait, that sounds vaguely familiar.

Caroline Casey (24:25)
yeah, no, it's the it's the mo it's the most astounding cultural contribution since the Beatles. I don't approve of AI, but I approv Okay, well I'll I'll have to send it to you and and and and make it a

James Ferrigno+ (24:30)
I think maybe I saw something once, but not n not consciously. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (24:36)
resource. So there's a lot of people imitating them, but but but they're they're profound. And it's these it's a pretty hip team of young Iranian men.

James Ferrigno+ (24:47)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (24:47)
Not

The government lets them do it, but it's not government run. But they do an amazing one on the true origins of America. And it's astonishing. I've shown it to native people and they're like, whoo. And it does what we all need to know, you know, in in in detail and and incredible writing. And it's it's nine minutes, and it's like Iran is schooling American citizens on what they need to know about their own history. It's like there's so many stories going on. But the reason I bring it up.

James Ferrigno+ (25:18)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (25:19)
is that, you know, the founding fathers, you know, got most of democracy from the Six Nation people, from the Anundaga. You know, and when they met

James Ferrigno+ (25:26)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (25:27)
with them, the Anandaga said, Where are your women? Where are your women? It won't work without women. We have the Council of Grandmothers. That's what makes democracy work. And the Council of Grandmothers has the veto on everything. They pick the war chief and they can veto anything that is not good for the next seven generations.

And you w you can't have democracy without the Council of Grandmothers. And and and the founding fathers are like, Well, think about that, okay. and then the Anandaga said, And you also have this thing called slavery, still working on that, you know, it's not gonna

James Ferrigno+ (26:00)
Uh-huh.

Caroline Casey (26:01)
work with slavery, but good luck to you. And they actually the founding fathers met with the six nation people, the onondaga for first nation people, on July third to ask permission, may we declare independence? And they're like, Give it a try.

Now, for the First Nation people it was dodgy 'cause they couldn't really tell

If the Brits or the or the or the revolutionaries would be better for them. And it turns out neither are really good. And you know,

James Ferrigno+ (26:30)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (26:30)
I g you know, I got this from, you know, Ken Burns, who's not exactly a radical, but it but but but a good historian. And so

James Ferrigno+ (26:37)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (26:37)
George Washington, nobody is one story, many, many stories. But George Washington

James Ferrigno+ (26:41)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (26:42)
was very Netanyahu also. He said, That Indian village, I want you to kill every man, woman, child, and baby.

And his soldiers were like, well, okay, but their orchards are fantastic. Mow them all down, said George. But we've never seen twelve foot high corn mow it down, right? And it's like, George. So it behooves all of us to know our history, right? The shadow

James Ferrigno+ (27:05)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (27:05)
history and and the tyranny we're dealing with in the world is a a kind of grotesque and monstrous animation of

James Ferrigno+ (27:11)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (27:12)
unaddressed shadow. And anyway, the Iranian Lego Video explosive news service, there's a there's a number of the feeds.

They they within hours of a news story in America, they have a they have a video out that's more reliable than any than anything actually out there. Like and and when you read

James Ferrigno+ (27:31)
Uh-huh.

Caroline Casey (27:31)
the comments, I mean they've got millions of people. They were banned from YouTube and everything, but millions of people. You know, and in the comments,

James Ferrigno+ (27:37)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (27:38)
you know, young women going, I used to watch Fox News, but now I wait for the Iranian Lego video to drop if I want the

James Ferrigno+ (27:43)
Wow.

Caroline Casey (27:43)
real story. It's it's it's it's anyway, it's it's astonishing.

James Ferrigno+ (27:49)
my gosh.

Caroline Casey (27:50)
And astonishing is f a new favorite word. you know how when

James Ferrigno+ (27:53)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (27:54)
people would would say, you know, smoke cannabis and go, let's get go get stoned. And that

James Ferrigno+ (28:00)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (28:00)
word was like, Why that word? You know, stoned like stoned to death, you know what? It turns out it comes from astonished. And it's like, that's

James Ferrigno+ (28:09)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (28:09)
much more fun. Let's step outside and get astonished, right? and astonished means thunderstruck. And so it's like, what?

James Ferrigno+ (28:12)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (28:17)
Let's get astonished.

So the Iranian Lego Vegro is astonishing. And then, you know, if we smoke cannabis, which in a sacred in a sacred way, that can be astonishing, right? So let's let's get astonished

James Ferrigno+ (28:26)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (28:28)
and let's let's shake it all up. I mean, let's look at things we haven't been looking at in our own personal history and cultural history, you know, because it's all active now. And if we

James Ferrigno+ (28:40)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (28:41)
know about it, we can partner and and work with it, and if we don't, we're we're possessed, you know.

James Ferrigno+ (28:48)
Yeah, things are bubbling up. I've noticed over the last year, at least for me, just all these new things, all these things bubbling up, past things that, I had a misperception of, or

Caroline Casey (28:59)
Hm.

James Ferrigno+ (28:59)
you know, just everywhere. But all in the in sometimes it's in my personal life, sometimes it's in the political arena, sometimes it's just in I don't know. Hmm.

Caroline Casey (29:10)
Well, what's what's an example of where you changed your mind?

James Ferrigno+ (29:14)
so in my personal life, like let me think of some of

Caroline Casey (29:22)
Or or in your political life.

James Ferrigno+ (29:24)
Yeah.

Let me think.

Caroline Casey (29:32)
Thinking is good.

James Ferrigno+ (29:36)
Luckily it's my show, so I can cut out anything I want. Yeah. Just

Caroline Casey (29:39)
Well well think of the owl. Th think of the owl. Forty thoughts, one thought. Forty thoughts, one thought, yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (29:44)
get it down. Well, the thing about the grandmothers, that that I occurred to me the other day. another thing that occurred to me, this was maybe a year ago. It's been a little while, but I've never really heard anyone else say this, but

It makes sense to me that science was simply is simply one of the schools of magic and it was just the victorious one. It seems very clear to me. Just my intuitive knowing is just telling me that. that, wait a second, you know, science is magic. It's like that's why they're trying to crush the word magic to crush their competitors. They just don't want sorcerers and, you know, other types of magicians out there. That that's

Caroline Casey (30:24)
Maybe.

James Ferrigno+ (30:24)
That occurred to me. because really look at what they're doing. They're doing breaking things down into little pieces. It's just a type. It's a focused, very kind of mechanical type of magic, but it's still magic. because what is magic but just a type of technology? I mean, it depends what how you look at it. anyway, that that occurred to me.

that's all I can think of at the moment.

Caroline Casey (30:48)
Okay. Well that that I mean that's a that's a good lead. So so defining things for ourselves is really good. and changing our mind is really good. Changing our definitions

James Ferrigno+ (30:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (30:58)
is really good. Like what's our definition of wise leadership is a good one to for everybody to think about. but I I like saying magic is simply a willingness to cooperate with everything.

James Ferrigno+ (31:08)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (31:09)
not not condone it, but just like what's going on, how do we cooperate? But but

James Ferrigno+ (31:13)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (31:13)
I had an astonishing thing happen. I I when I was in Morocco, a very complex place.

Beautiful, beautiful, exquisite complex. but we spent one night in the desert and I got really ill and it was cold and there there was no electricity, which it can be beautiful because Morocco really knows about nighttime lighting atmosphere, like and everybody else went off to a soupy breathing thing, but I was cold and I so I turned to my iPhone for music for solace, you know. And up came this talk that I have no idea how it got on my iPhone.

I

hadn't heard it before. didn't even know who was giving it. Turns out it was this very smart British guy named Peter Kingsley. And it was a history of Western culture and Islam. And I'm there studying Sufism. And it's like, wow. And he says, Western culture originally had a sacred purpose that was largely forgotten in the West. Not completely, but largely forgotten in the West, but kept alive by Berber mystical poetry.

And the esoteric aspects of of Sufism and Islam. And I'm like, what a fascinating thing.

James Ferrigno+ (32:23)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (32:24)
And then he says, I'm gonna get them confused, right? Empedocles and Parmenides, and he says, 2500 years ago, they created, they're the foun founders of Western civilization, they created logic as a platform to transcendence. I'm like, that's great too. It's

James Ferrigno+ (32:41)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (32:42)
not an enemy.

It's it's a partner.

James Ferrigno+ (32:44)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (32:44)
It's like first, you know, get organized, no things, no things, and then whoa, okay. so that was super fun. And it was also you

James Ferrigno+ (32:53)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (32:54)
know, very pertinent to the pattern of now, 'cause he was talking about twenty five hundred years ago. And and when you look at the ancient world, I mean, people were really moving. I mean, from from Morocco and and and Fez, one of the oldest cities in the world, but I mean, it ninth century we know of, but even older, and people were moving

goods and teachings from Morocco into Spain, into Egypt and Syria. You know, they were moving. And the Sahara was a, you know, a an ocean desert. And a lot of what I learned that was wonderful was just casual conversations, you know, with w wise people on the street who said, you know, we in Morocco think of the the Sahara as an ocean, and in it there are underground rivers that carry words and stories. And like

That's fabulous. I love that. Right. but so so the in I'm listening to this in in the in the in the cold desert of Morocco and says 2500 years of the creation of rationality as a partner to transcendence, you know. And that's like that's great. and then and it was common then for people to go on journeys to other worlds. And he says Parmenides goes to the the world of truth and justice to bring it back to humans.

James Ferrigno+ (34:11)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (34:12)
And Epimenides, I get them confused, is taken to the underworld. This is all happening now, is taken to the underworld where an unnamed goddess speaks to him and says, Listen, sort of like a grandmother, listen, because when you return to the humans, I want you to be my messenger. And his poem, because philosophers were poets then, it's like, Of course, philosophy,

James Ferrigno+ (34:35)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (34:35)
poetry, art, science, myth, they're all happy together. This the

Yeah, we

James Ferrigno+ (34:40)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (34:40)
can talk about the diasporas and the simspras. so this is very happening now. You know, Pluto says we're all going to the underworld, we're all stripped, everything into the cauldron. Everything into the cauldron. You know, and what shall we ladle out? And how shall we participate so it's the least harmful as possible? But I mean, but

James Ferrigno+ (34:58)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (34:59)
look at what's going on, you know, in in I mean everywhere. But it's like the American presence in the Middle East might be over, you know. But but

James Ferrigno+ (35:07)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (35:08)
But but again we want to cool it out and slow it down because cool heads. But but so Parmenides or Epimenides, anyway, so he's listening to the goddess, and his poem, because philosophers are poets, of course,

James Ferrigno+ (35:27)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (35:28)
is full of the repeated word yearning and longing. And Peter Kingsley, kind of translating, says that word

Yearning

and longing were considered the primal creative force, the thing that starts everything. I'm like, that's great. And Neptune dreams and vision and yearning is in Aries now, the first sign. And it's like, and they said, if you follow your yearning, ooh, you know, it will take you on the journey you need to go on to be fully yourself. And I go, I love that. And that's why I love

James Ferrigno+ (35:56)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Caroline Casey (35:58)
jazz, you know, like the the saxophone is full

James Ferrigno+ (36:01)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (36:01)
of yearning.

And Middle Eastern music and Persian music and North African music is full of like yearning. It you've got the steady beat and then this like oo transcendent yearning and so yearning. So I I love I love that. So that's some

James Ferrigno+ (36:16)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (36:16)
of what I got out of my my being ill in the desert listening to a random talk that popped up as though it was an appointment. Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (36:25)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm I'm on board with that. The your desires, your true desires are you know, they're not random. I mean the universe is put them there because that's your path. They're or you've put them there. so that you know where to go.

Caroline Casey (36:45)
If they're cooked, yeah. That's that's the the Kabbalistic. Yeah, we want the wisdom from hm. Well,

James Ferrigno+ (36:46)
Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be the right kind, yeah. Has to be the right kind, yeah.

Caroline Casey (36:53)
the the the the Kabbalists and we want the w the liberating wisdom from all traditions as opposed to the modern creepitude. So the the Kabbalists said that all desires are pure if we cook them back to what

James Ferrigno+ (37:08)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (37:08)
they're really for.

You know, and and and what they taught was about visualizing the desirable thing and it said the path of desire, which is a a a Western sort of esoteric path, cabalistic, will will eventually tutor us as we visualize a thing and then it happens and we go, Good, but could be better and they said it will eventually guide us so that all our desires are for community good as well. Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (37:36)
Mm-hmm.

Mm. I guess Siddhartha is pretty much about that, right? The

Caroline Casey (37:42)
it's a long time since I read that. Do you remember it?

James Ferrigno+ (37:43)
The book.

Yeah, I I remember so it's been a long time for me too, but I pretty good memory. It's there's

Caroline Casey (37:49)
We're we're going back to the seventies now.

James Ferrigno+ (37:51)
the two brothers and the one follows the path of devotion to God and you know, j just gives up all worldly pressure, and the other brother, does the exact opposite and he just

has harems and takes drugs and you know, he gets becomes an opium addict and just all these things. But he eventually gets sick of it and reforms and changes and all these things happen to him and he goes through all these adventures and then he finds, you know, Nirvana, our piece at the end and the the guy who was just in the monastery the whole time gets really angry at him at the end of the book. He's you got it and I didn't and you were out whoring and you know and I was so it's it's pretty interesting. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (38:30)
that's good. That's great. Well

yeah, thank you for bringing bringing Siddhartha back alive. That's that's that's good. Yeah. Herman Hesse. Well, yeah, we want to you know,

James Ferrigno+ (38:40)
yeah, he's

Caroline Casey (38:40)
we want to bring back, you know, ever ev you know, everybody. You're like what whatever whatever has been useful in our lives, fragments of conversations, books read. Siddhartha's a good one. The Glass the The Glass Bead game.

James Ferrigno+ (38:50)
yeah, so much stuff. Glass bead game. Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (38:55)
Very trippy.

James Ferrigno+ (38:57)
Hmm.

Caroline Casey (38:57)
Right.

Well again and very pertinent. I'm it's humming in my mind, but it's it's it's sort it's sort of like Silicon Valley. I mean it's these smarty pants scient people, but but there is a comeuppance in a way, right? Isn't there?

James Ferrigno+ (39:11)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (39:11)
No, I don't remember as well, but it but it was a but it was a it

James Ferrigno+ (39:12)
Yes. Yeah.

Caroline Casey (39:14)
was a genius novel. And I do remember at the end, you know, transcend, transcend. But

James Ferrigno+ (39:18)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (39:19)
yeah, so you're bringing up all these things. Well well it it's it's like I've created a an I've created another word. we've we've got the diaspora. I've created the word which is the Simspora. The diaspora is where everything goes and then the Simspora,

James Ferrigno+ (39:30)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (39:33)
sim means together is where it comes back. It's like a yeah, etymologist

James Ferrigno+ (39:36)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (39:37)
was saying, D d to me, do you know the

etymology

of the word symbolic, and I'm like, no, it's only the whole point of my life, you know, what is it? He goes, Well,

James Ferrigno+ (39:45)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (39:46)
well, ball means to throw and sim is together. So symbolic means to throw together. And he said, so either we have

James Ferrigno+ (39:53)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (39:53)
a symbolic way of understanding the world or the word world is diabolic. Right? Isn't that great?

James Ferrigno+ (39:59)
Mm, yeah.

Caroline Casey (40:00)
So so it was years ago my same friend Marcelino, I was pointing out to him that the New Orleans voodoo tarot deck

I said they did a really great job of syncretizing, you know, Vudun and Ifa from Africa and the Kabbalah from Jewish mysticism. And Marcelino said, Well, that's because they all started off as one thing in Africa. I'm like, that's great. And the people creating the cards didn't know that. It's like so it starts as one thing, you know, people, tribes, everything goes, right? On its own unique journey. There we go.

You know, and now is the Sims for us like let's have everything come back. Who brought what? You know, keeping all the uniqueness of its journey, you know, but coming back into unified accord. So it's it's one of the things that I I think is useful to to to play with. yeah, the the the the coming back together. And right, so so

James Ferrigno+ (40:58)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (41:00)
sorry, yeah, you go you go.

James Ferrigno+ (41:01)
Yeah,

it just gave me a thought. I made me think of I watching Star Trek the other day and just all the Starfleets out in ships out into the galaxy and then they all come back and bring back the information and gain allies and you know, it's just and it's this constant pattern of out and then bringing the out in, actually bringing the other species in to their group as they're doing it.

Caroline Casey (41:25)
Right. That's a great thing to bring up. Well, ca 'cause it's it's like a friend of mine who's political operative in a good way and a biblical scholar says, you know, even in the Abrahamic religions, the word heretic was a term of praise. Because

James Ferrigno+ (41:42)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (41:42)
it meant cross pollinating contributor to culture, so that knowledge never degraded into dogma or superstition. You know, boy that James sure is a great heretic, right?

James Ferrigno+ (41:53)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (41:54)
Only once there's a priesthood

would it get us killed, right? So

James Ferrigno+ (41:58)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (41:59)
yeah, so I so I I I love that. You know, maybe yeah, maybe we're speaking to everyone's inner heretic as appraising. And

James Ferrigno+ (42:07)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (42:11)
yeah, and and you know, let's see, there are many so many things here. But right, thought thought come back, da da da. I know.

James Ferrigno+ (42:21)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (42:22)
right, so so

So

somebody I can't even remember how this happened, but somebody said, there's somebody I really, really want you to meet to have a conversation. It's Rabbi White, he's head of Jewish studies at Georgetown University, and I'm gonna bring him to your house to have tea. I'm like, Okay, yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (42:42)
All right.

Caroline Casey (42:43)
So that was so he he comes and he's this very erudite, very playful rabbi.

And it was it was two thousand twelve, because I invited him, I had I was going with a bunch of people to the Mayan end of calendar with actual Mayan scholars and stuff, and he's

and he was almost gonna come. but but I said to him, I go, Rabbi White, you seem pretty playful. here's a heretical thought that I have that organized religions are like shipwrecks on which barnacles and beautiful coral have grown. And he goes

I like that. I go, you're very playful. You're very playful. Right. and you know, many people would go, you know, the the infidel, terrible, you know, that's blasphemy. But but he he was up for it, right? and and it's true that, you know, just to to mine things, it's like there is exquisite art and music and yearning in all the religions, all the orthodox religions,

James Ferrigno+ (43:41)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (43:42)
who then get kind of tyrannical and grumpy once there's a priesthood. Once there's a priesthood.

James Ferrigno+ (43:47)
Mm.

Caroline Casey (43:48)
so we might want to do away with priesthoods into the cauldron and ladle out, you know, citizens. or you know, what what does it want to be? It's it's like looking at everything and going, What

James Ferrigno+ (44:01)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (44:01)
what did this creepy thing wanna be before it got orthodox or constrained? You know, let's track it back and set it free to be what it

James Ferrigno+ (44:08)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (44:10)
Yeah. No, that's good that yeah, Star Star Trek, you know, again, yeah, that's

Nineteen seventies. We're go we're going we're going with nineteen seventies again. the original

James Ferrigno+ (44:19)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (44:19)
and then later. But but yeah, they that that was pretty good. And and also it's like tell the story and then the science will follow. So science and myth, right? A lot of scientists and NASA scientists were inspired to be NASA scientists by watching Star Trek. So but

James Ferrigno+ (44:34)
Yeah, that that's

only become more true with time. It it used to be

Caroline Casey (44:37)
Mm.

James Ferrigno+ (44:37)
a lot of them and now it's like o almost all of them.

Caroline Casey (44:41)
yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (44:42)
It just there's endless documentaries about it.

Caroline Casey (44:45)
Well, the story and the myth and you know, we we want

something

worthy to be invited out of us to participate in some greater thing, you know, yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (44:56)
Yeah,

yeah, there's there's amazing stories there. I just I watched a documentary on the life of Nichelle Nichols, you know, who played Uhura and my god. my

Caroline Casey (45:05)
she's fabulous. Right. Yes. And

James Ferrigno+ (45:08)
I didn't realize what she had done. She like yeah,

Caroline Casey (45:10)
Right. And and Martin Luther King Junior. Right. Right.

James Ferrigno+ (45:13)
that yeah, he told her to remain on the show when she was gonna leave.

Caroline Casey (45:16)
Right. Yeah.

James Ferrigno+ (45:17)
And but she went

You know, gathered a few other women together and went city to city promoting for years because NASA r actually didn't discriminate. They actually would take anyone that was qualified, yet there were no women and there were no people of color because they all inherently believed that there's no way they would be accepted.

And she went out and convinced people, but it took her, you know, years of giving speeches, making appearances, writing things, doing interviews. but she and she just built this whole organization which eventually resulted in women and people of color being the astronauts and

I think in it a number of the people on the first shuttle mission are thanking her. And even if you interview them now, they'll they'll thank her for that. It's it's pretty

Caroline Casey (46:15)
That's great.

James Ferrigno+ (46:16)
pretty amazing.

Caroline Casey (46:17)
No, that's great. Well, again, story, myth, story. It's like we tell the story, it

James Ferrigno+ (46:21)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (46:22)
becomes real. That becomes a story that inspires people. It becomes real. Storytellers,

James Ferrigno+ (46:26)
Mm-hmm.

Caroline Casey (46:26)
world belongs to the storytellers. No, that's great. Yeah, I I rem I do remember her, but but yeah, that's a wonderful additional that you you've you've added to my understanding of her and and to go back, yeah, because I knew she was really cool. And I yeah, I knew that she wanted to leave and Martin Luther King Jr. said

called her up and said, No, no, we

James Ferrigno+ (46:46)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (46:46)
need you there. 'Cause th

James Ferrigno+ (46:48)
Yeah.

Caroline Casey (46:49)
'cause she was like, This is silly, it's annoying, I just and she goes and he goes, No, this is really important. Yeah.