What Nobody Tells You

James Ferrigno+ (00:00)
Welcome to What Nobody Tells You. I'm James Farinho, your host, and our guest today is Chris Daly, former San Francisco Board of Supervisors. Welcome, Chris.

Chris Daly (00:11)
Hey James, good to be

James Ferrigno+ (00:14)
Yeah, glad glad to have you. So you spent some time in San Francisco politics. when you look back at it now, what stands out the most for you?

Chris Daly (00:29)
It's it's a good question. you know, it was a it was a long time ago, which we were kind of chit chatting about before hitting record here. that's the thing that that that stands out. Obviously, San Francisco

James Ferrigno+ (00:44)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (00:44)
politics and politicians are forefront in the news, the national and you know news as well, with you know, the last Democratic nominee for vice president being Kamala Harris and

you know, Governor Gavin Newsom, former mayor and former supervisor who used to sit next to me back in the early two thousands on the board, you know, possibly, you know, running for president. So, you know, San Francisco politics and politicians are are out there and, you know, people are aware of it. But when I look back to the city, I obviously think about you know, my years there, which are some of my best years.

when I was on the board of supervisors, I got married, I had two kids, and was a part of a righteous fight to try and save the soul of San Francisco. So decades before kind of the national political issue was affordability, the issue in San Francisco was affordability. and

James Ferrigno+ (01:50)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (01:50)
you know, as a twenty something kid who had just moved to San Francisco.

you know, I had a very strong passion and sort of inclination towards working for social and economic justice, racial justice, and you know, living and kind of working in the mission district when that first dot com thing was happening in the nineties, just a lot of families and small businesses, nonprofits were getting pushed out.

folks

James Ferrigno+ (02:23)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (02:24)
that I knew and cared about. And so we you know banded together and and and and pushed back against that. And so I think now with sort of the AI boom, sort of sort of the third or fourth whatever iteration of you know the tech push. In San Francisco, I I certainly look back to my years in the city in some righteous bites. I'm

proud of

James Ferrigno+ (02:47)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (02:48)
the work that we did, even though, you know, if you look at the

trajectory or the arc of it. A lot of really good, special things in San Francisco, you know, probably have been lost for good. A lot of the diversity, a lot of the working class elements of the city. You know, we fought to save and I think we prolonged it. But you know, the the large economic forces and political forces that come with them.

They're strong and it's it's hard to h it's hard to hold that you know, that levy with with those forces.

I James, I'm sorry, I don't even know if I answered

James Ferrigno+ (03:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Daly (03:31)
your question, but

James Ferrigno+ (03:34)
Yeah, I think you did. with San Francisco in particular, it's one of those cities that

It's really affected by federal forces. So it's kinda it can be challenging to be local in a place that's, you know, you know.

They're paying attention to it. It's not you can't go under the radar.

Chris Daly (03:59)
Yeah, I mean I I will say it's

James Ferrigno+ (04:00)
So

Chris Daly (04:01)
there is this tradition in San Francisco of resistance. And so we I I remember even as a you know twenty something kind of getting involved in community organizing and and that kind of that level of politics. we knew about, the folks in you know the sixties and seventies that fought against the you know, they called it the Manhattanization.

of San Francisco. I mean, I you know, some of your viewers probably remember the San Francisco Bay Guardian, which highlighted that issue weekly in the

James Ferrigno+ (04:33)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (04:34)
city. And so, you know, that was around. We knew about the fights for rent control in the seventies, right? So there were people that came before, obviously, you know, the world knows of Harvey Milk. and

James Ferrigno+ (04:46)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (04:48)
you know, a lot of the inspirational

you know, struggle and resistance that makes up the vibrant history of San Francisco. And you look back like, you know, before, you know, you know, folks that are around now, but you know, you have you know the Great General Strike in the 30s, you know, the Longshore Union and all of that. So there is a exceptionally rich labor and community kind of resistance and you know history of struggle in the city.

that it's easy to kind of plug into and attempt

to build

James Ferrigno+ (05:25)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (05:26)
on. So, you know, my years in the city were very small part of of a long tradition of attempting to have a place that accepts people that you know where you can work and live with dignity and

I'm just not sure there's as much of that in San Francisco as as as there was. It's been they've been chipping away over the years and every time I go back

James Ferrigno+ (05:55)
Mm.

Chris Daly (05:57)
to the city now I'm like, What's going on here?

James Ferrigno+ (06:00)
Yeah, it's it's really yeah, I've watched it decline over the years. I'm still still in the city. but there are there are people out there. There's still motivated young people, of course, and people who really if not at the highest levels of the government than just the community themselves, are still there. and, you know.

Chris Daly (06:20)
Yeah, I I I certainly

you're right. And I I I shouldn't take away from the folks there now familiar with

James Ferrigno+ (06:25)
Hmm. Yeah.

Chris Daly (06:28)
you know, some of the work going on and

James Ferrigno+ (06:30)
Mm.

Chris Daly (06:30)
some of the people doing it. although there's a whole new generation, right? there are

James Ferrigno+ (06:37)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (06:37)
folks who are progressive politicians, sort of of you know, I called myself a progressive politician back in the day.

James Ferrigno+ (06:46)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (06:47)
but there are, you know, progressive politicians I've never met.

in San Francisco. And so you know, that work continues. It's just the the field now is I think a harder one, than it was even in my

James Ferrigno+ (06:59)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (06:59)
years, which might have been harder than you know, in in a previous previous generation.

James Ferrigno+ (07:04)
Yeah, I'm not sure not sure exactly the the

The arc of that, how that went. But yeah, it does look like certainly I know since the mid-90s, it's just gotten more and more challenging to do things. Although really this is just an example, because I haven't been really plugged into the activist community around here the last few years, but I did notice when they sent ice.

to San Francisco and you know they were sending them to all the different cities and how

Just watching the videos that people had shot and watching them from LA and then watching the all the ones I could get from San Francisco. In San Francisco, the level of organization was astounding. I mean, it was really impressive. The how organized the people were and how they were on all the different blocks and they could they had different groups and they could notify each other and then a bunch of so if they saw them, they a bunch of people would arrive.

And I it also interesting how their method of basically just talking to or yelling at and shaming the the ICE officers for what they were doing was effective. And I on many videos watched them they had the officers running away from them, trying to get away from them when they were outnumbered. Which was that's really impressive. You know.

So yeah.

Chris Daly (08:42)
Absolutely. And I I I I don't have any

unique San Francisco stories to share, but nationally watching watching the

James Ferrigno+ (08:48)
Yeah. Hmm.

Chris Daly (08:51)
you know, resistance to just this reign of terror from ice, you know, obviously, you know, Minneapolis and Portland

James Ferrigno+ (09:02)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (09:03)
and LA and you know all of these places, that's been one of the I think one of the brightest

political notes that we've seen in in sort of this latest round of you know the Trump era. and so

James Ferrigno+ (09:21)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (09:22)
and I will say this about San Francisco. I I I knew in my years in the city that San Francisco was a special place and worth fighting for, but it probably wasn't until I left San Francisco. I do political work in the state of Nevada now. and just the

You know, there are good people everywhere and there are good people in the state of Nevada who are doing really important good work, but the infrastructure is just not there in the way that it is or that I was used to in San Francisco, where there are community organizations everywhere, there are nonprofits everywhere, there are you know, people just coming together, and you just don't see that the same way in other places. And so San Francisco is

a special place and appreciate appreciate your your observation on that.

James Ferrigno+ (10:20)
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it really is. It's even though things have degraded, I think my point was that it's still special and diverse and huge, like by comparison to what it was, but like you said, comparing it to someplace else, I mean it's still pretty amazing.

it's it's good to do that, I think. It's valuable to not become disheartened that it's not as good as it used to be. Or

not winning as many fights as we used to, at least politically.

Chris Daly (10:51)
Agreed. You you don't want to be that guy who says,

James Ferrigno+ (10:52)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (10:54)
you know, I I guess I am that guy, but you don't want to be that guy who says back in my day

James Ferrigno+ (11:00)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (11:04)
just it's in terms

James Ferrigno+ (11:04)
It was so much yeah.

Chris Daly (11:05)
of you know the main issue that I worked on in terms of affordability. It's you know, I know there are there are ebbs and flows

James Ferrigno+ (11:13)
Oof.

Chris Daly (11:14)
in, you know, dot com booms and, you know, little busts and that sort of thing. And obviously, you know, the COVID years it had a big impact everywhere. but now with

James Ferrigno+ (11:26)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (11:27)
kind of AI, you know, y the the stories come across my feeds about

you know, what's happening with rents in the city. I just helped my son who's starting his senior year at San Francisco State move in to an apartment in Park Merced and do

James Ferrigno+ (11:46)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (11:46)
even the rents there are are are pretty high. And so it's it's a struggle for, you know folks who are not making those you know, AI type salaries.

just just to afford it. And I think, you know, when I talk about, you know, changes in the city, you know, that's sort of what's in the back of my mind driving it.

James Ferrigno+ (12:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's become less affordable. The rents, like my rent, for instance, is just continuing to rise. And this is in I'm in Ingleside, like the forgotten outside part of the city no one even knows exists, but it's it's still expensive here, you know.

So yeah, it's something one would think something will have to give at some point. I can't keep going forever. I think what I'm seeing too is there's this endless construction of apartments here and on the peninsula, just all around the Bay Area. And

though I haven't been in them myself, from what I've read from my research, it seems that a lot of the the apartments and even houses are simply being purchased for investment purposes and there's no one living in them. So and I don't I can't can't get any exact statistics on that, but I think it's having an impact on the on the prices.

Chris Daly (13:21)
I I I I can remember engaging on

James Ferrigno+ (13:22)
Yeah, so

Chris Daly (13:23)
on that issue back in the two thousands.

James Ferrigno+ (13:26)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (13:27)
on in you know back in my San Francisco years. So yeah, I'm sure there's a good bit of that. And you know, there's

James Ferrigno+ (13:34)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (13:34)
a pretty I don't know if it's healthy, but there's a pretty vibrant debate around, you know, can you build your way out of the housing crisis? You know, I'm a believer in in rent control, and I think

James Ferrigno+ (13:49)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (13:50)
or

any

of life's you know basic necessities. there needs to be regulation around it. And it doesn't seem to me that building your way out of a an affordability crisis i is gonna work. you know, and so when I was when I

James Ferrigno+ (14:10)
No.

Chris Daly (14:11)
was on the board, you know, I prioritized investment in affordable housing, strengthening tenant protections.

and that sort of thing. And I got a lot of a lot of pushback for for being strident in my views on it. but you know, looking back, I think I was probably right and I'm glad I was strident. maybe should have been even more so.

I guess that is possible. So

James Ferrigno+ (14:43)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (14:46)
But but no regrets.

James Ferrigno+ (14:47)
Yeah, yeah. yeah, I appreciated your your stridents as you as you say back then. That was

It's impressive your commitment and and ability to really just push forward.

So there's one thing I I think I haven't asked you about. I don't think I had interviewed you since since this happened, but the you know, if you don't want to answer this question, feel free not to answer it, but your day as mayor

Chris Daly (15:14)
Yeah, I'm s acting mayor. Yep,

James Ferrigno+ (15:17)
Acting Mair, yeah.

Chris Daly (15:18)
interestingly enough though, in San Francisco when the mayor leaves the state, a member of the Board of Supervisors, typically the president, although the mayor can appoint any of the eleven members of the board to serve as acting mayor. serves as mayor and has all the powers of of of the mayor, right? Like if there's a a crisis,

you know, little bit of history. do you remember when the oil tanker ran into the Bay Bridge? That was a a big you know a big issue and one that needed the city's

James Ferrigno+ (15:54)
Yeah, it's a big deal.

Chris Daly (15:55)
attention. the mayor at the time was out of state. I think Bevan Dufty, a former colleague of mine, was the acting mayor and had a lot of, you know, responsibilities that, you know, in those days,

James Ferrigno+ (16:07)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (16:08)
with that managing that that crisis. so, you know, back when Willie Brown was the mayor,

I was budget chair. we negotiated a a budget deal. It was highly contentious in the process as

James Ferrigno+ (16:24)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (16:24)
it typically was during that June budget season. but you know we reached a an agreement. I wanted to save a bunch of health services, you know, in in the center city. And you know, I probably had mayor special assistance

on the shopping block. you know, but you know ultimately we we cut a deal and then I got a phone call from the mayor's chief of staff afterwards saying the mayor was going out of town and did I did I want to you know serve for a day as acting mayor and I said, sure. Sounds good. and as soon as I hung up that call, I sort of hollered over to my legislative aide.

Said we need to figure out all of the powers of the acting mayor that the mayor can undo. and it it turned out that at that time there were pending appointments to the public utilities commission. This is a very important commission in in San Francisco. so you know, the hatch hatchy system is

James Ferrigno+ (17:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Daly (17:32)
under the PUC that includes water, that includes

a whole bunch of power generation and you know service to I forget how many million customers but a lot.

James Ferrigno+ (17:45)
Yeah, it's critical.

Chris Daly (17:48)
and the mayor was you know looking to appoint some patently unqualified appointees

James Ferrigno+ (17:55)
Uh-huh.

Chris Daly (17:55)
to the position and I'm like, well these are appointments that the mayor makes and they're fixed term appointments. so I figured out a a

couple of appointments to make, including one who was the former national chair of the Sierra Club. so

James Ferrigno+ (18:14)
Uh-huh.

Chris Daly (18:15)
but you know serious environmentalist. there wasn't an environmentalist on the the PSC at the time, so made those appointments. One of the two ended up sticking. it was quite controversial. I think the mayor accused me of some sort of sedition or

James Ferrigno+ (18:35)
Yeah, he wasn't happy. He wasn't happy.

Chris Daly (18:35)
that sort of thing. But so he

came back from he was on a trip to China, he came back and attempted to undo it all, but one of the two stuck. and so yeah that was that was that was my day as mayor for the for for the day. Tried to make it count.

James Ferrigno+ (18:55)
Yeah, that was that was Yeah. I I really saw that as a positive thing and I was I've always wanted to thank you for that and something actually got done. it was good to see that.

Chris Daly (19:09)
Well thanks. I was happy to do it.

James Ferrigno+ (19:13)
Yeah.

when did you get interested in politics? When did you first start paying attention to the public sphere?

Chris Daly (19:23)
I I I'm I'm not sure if I've ever been like interested in politics. Right? Like I I I the the

James Ferrigno+ (19:30)
Yeah, well, yeah, I d I can't stand it either, but social a social awareness, let's say.

Chris Daly (19:37)
I I remember, you know, when I was sort of an established elected official, oftentimes you'd have people come to you to talk about how they were interested in running for office, and more often than not I found myself attempting to talk them out of it.

James Ferrigno+ (19:54)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (19:54)
and and not that public service is bad, but running for office is one of many different ways in which you know you can serve the public. and I don't even think it's the best way, it's certainly not the best way to start service to the public, engaging in your community.

the conversation we had about like San Francisco's rich tradition of kind of community togetherness and activism. Like for me that's you know the place to start. That's where I got my start. So yeah,

James Ferrigno+ (20:38)
Mm.

Chris Daly (20:40)
I'm not exactly sure the genesis for me personally, but I've always had a a pretty strong conviction around, you know, social, racial and economic justice. you know

Some of that, you know, came from doing community service work, you know, in when I was younger. I remember the summer of my first year in in college. I was recruited to go and do a summer program in Philadelphia working with homeless people where the idea was we were gonna team up college students with homeless people and take over vacant houses to to actually physically end.

homelessness in Philadelphia didn't exactly work out like that. We did do some some housing

James Ferrigno+ (21:26)
Mm.

Chris Daly (21:26)
occupations, but you know I I I certainly was politicized through that work. and then you know when I I came to San Francisco when I was 21 in 1993 specifically to work out of the Coalition on Homelessness in San Francisco's tenderloin. and so

kind of that work there and sort of my related housing work in residential hotels in the mission district. And then, you know, this whole dot com thing that happened where, you

James Ferrigno+ (21:59)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (21:59)
know, we saw that that big wave of evictions in the mid to late nineties. I was evicted actually,

from my apartment in the mission, on an owner moving. and so but, you know, a lot of folks who didn't have the ability to kind of hang on like I did.

you know, we're were run out of the city that time and that was that was when I wouldn't say I decided, I would say it was decided that I was gonna run for office. It was a group effort. I think I was sort of the w I was young I was maybe the youngest one in the room and the one with the least number of skeletons in the closet. So they were like, Chris, you do it. So So I'm like, No,

James Ferrigno+ (22:42)
interesting.

Chris Daly (22:44)
no, no, no, no And they're like, Yeah, yeah, you're doing it. So that was

That was how I first ran for office. And the fun part about my first run for office is we sort of had to make it all up as we went along. and certainly I had, you know, years of community organizing experience and a lot of, you know, friends and and allies in the struggle to tap into. but you know, there wasn't like you know, you see out there now with

you know, the Mamdanis who have sort of the DSA kind of you know organizational support. we didn't really have

James Ferrigno+ (23:27)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (23:28)
that back in the nineties. So you just sort of created these campaigns and started to engage and build from scratch. so that two thousand

James Ferrigno+ (23:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Daly (23:38)
run was pretty pretty exciting and you know a lot of people were involved.

James Ferrigno+ (23:49)
Yeah, yeah. It's gonna take a lot of people, huh?

Yeah, I think that determines the success of it too, how many people really jump on board.

Chris Daly (24:01)
I I'm again in. I I remember I was twenty seven. I was twenty-eight when I was elected, twenty-seven when I started running.

James Ferrigno+ (24:07)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (24:08)
And I can remember even in The Bay Guardian, which was, you know, a sort of the newspaper that covered progressive politics more than others. I wasn't totally written off but as a candidate. But y you know, I certainly wasn't a favored candidate. I wasn't

Willie Brown's candidate. I wasn't even endorsed by Tom

James Ferrigno+ (24:33)
No.

Chris Daly (24:33)
Amiano, who you know, I was friendly with and had worked on the Amiano campaign for mayor in in ninety-nine as a volunteer, but I wasn't his

James Ferrigno+ (24:43)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (24:43)
chosen candidate. his operation actually tried to get me to drop out of the race, which I didn't.

so I was sort of very independent. And

wasn't supposed to win and I my response to that was I mean, yeah, I probably won't win unless I get more votes than the other candidates. So it was just sort of a

James Ferrigno+ (25:09)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (25:11)
it was just sort of like go and just go get more votes than the other candidates and that's what we did.

So yeah, you're right, I shouldn't win, except that I got more votes. So that's that it's kinda quaint. That's how elections used to work.

James Ferrigno+ (25:23)
Yeah, that's that's how it's determined theoretically. Yeah.

The votes have to actually get to being counted.

Politics is very uncertain. Things can happen. It's really hard to predict.

Yeah, I remember with about politics being

I'm interested in communities and, you know, helping to improve standard of living for people and had worked for an activist for for quite a few years and had the radio show and I was active with KPFA and

just because there was really not enough people running. I ran for in two thousand four for school board and I didn't win, but after going through the running process, and I remember they said run again, run again and all the people I had running win, they all ran again. I did not and they all they all eventually won, like in the second or third shot and then went to the board of soups.

It was so grueling. I like this is just gonna destroy me, you know, the campaigning part. So I just decided not to because it's thought, you know, I could be more effective somewhere else,

Chris Daly (26:33)
Campaigning is hard. so I I ran three three campaigns,

James Ferrigno+ (26:39)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (26:39)
the the 2001, and then I was up again in 2002, and then in 2006 was was my last run

James Ferrigno+ (26:45)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (26:46)
for the board. And the campaigns are hard, but what I liked about the campaigns is that you sort of were going out there and were kind of the actor. you got to build.

the campaign. You got to

James Ferrigno+ (27:05)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (27:05)
talk about the issues that you want to talk about in the campaign. And yeah, I mean during campaigns you have, you know, opponents and you know the press and folks trying to paint you one way or the other, but you have the

James Ferrigno+ (27:19)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (27:20)
you have the capacity to, you know, choose to respond to that or not. you know, to go talk to, you know, your constituents, your voters.

directly. You know, you have the power to run your own, you know, if you are able to raise money and you know public financing is is now a thing in San Francisco and and

James Ferrigno+ (27:46)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (27:46)
implement it during my tenure there. But you know you have the power to to run your own paid communications. and you have the power to engage others. And so

James Ferrigno+ (28:01)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (28:01)
I liked campaigns a lot.

James Ferrigno+ (28:04)
Yeah. yeah.

Chris Daly (28:06)
the holding of the office. I found that much sort of more difficult.

James Ferrigno+ (28:14)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (28:16)
psychologically

is not the right word, but there is certainly you have a a forum in you know where you can speak but you're much more

James Ferrigno+ (28:28)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (28:28)
of a target. for me

James Ferrigno+ (28:32)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (28:33)
holding off in and I I could have not said crazy stuff that I said at the time and been less of a target, I guess. But going and sort of doing it

James Ferrigno+ (28:38)
Yeah. What's the point?

Chris Daly (28:41)
the way that I wanted to do it,

James Ferrigno+ (28:43)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (28:43)
sort of speaking truth to power and

fighting for those who are less fortunate, you get very powerful enemies. and so I always relished campaign time, because

James Ferrigno+ (28:56)
Mm.

Chris Daly (28:57)
that was when we could go and and and get our message out more forcefully and more aggressively. And I attempted during like you know my last four years in office, to create some structure to go and be more campaign like

while

I was in office, it's just very difficult to do. so

James Ferrigno+ (29:20)
Mm.

Chris Daly (29:22)
So just flip side there on that campaigning is but campaigning

James Ferrigno+ (29:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Daly (29:26)
is difficult, it's grueling. and for me it was nice

James Ferrigno+ (29:27)
Yeah, yeah, it was screwing.

Chris Daly (29:29)
to be younger. so I was twenty-seven when I launched my

James Ferrigno+ (29:32)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (29:33)
first campaign, and you know, so I ran campaigns between the ages of twenty seven and what thirty three, thirty-four years old. So you know, that's it's a little easier at those ages than than at the current age.

James Ferrigno+ (29:48)
Yeah, yeah, my first one I was forty. So might be a little bit harder.

Chris Daly (29:56)
Kinda like bartending. When I bartended in my twenties, it was fun. My joints

James Ferrigno+ (30:00)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (30:00)
didn't hurt, you know, and then I found myself bartending in my forties and just much more difficult.

James Ferrigno+ (30:06)
Yeah.

Not quite the same. Yeah. Yeah, but the you're right, you can really get a message out there. I did enjoy that part of being able to talk to everybody and just have a huge crowd and do QA. I love to do that. We'd be able to answer all the people's questions about things and kinda

Just let people know what was going on in certain areas if if they didn't, or give a different perspective on it. And yeah, and I think for mine personally, it was kind of strategic. I was there because I was the most left person running that was a series candidate. So I think it allowed

the other progressives to look more mainstream or center.

Chris Daly (30:47)
I

I was vi very aware of kind of holding the left flank during my time on the Board of Supervisors. And you know, you mentioned McGonzales. so

James Ferrigno+ (30:59)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (31:00)
McGonzales was elected in two thousand, the year I was, and Green Party member. And so we you know, we kind of shared the left flank. Tom Amiano, who had held down the left flank for a number of years, sort

James Ferrigno+ (31:14)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (31:15)
of got more room when

kind of Matt and I came in sort of on his left. but I can remember talking with folks about how part of what we were doing in San Francisco politics and in City Hall was you know opening the doors and windows for others to access the building. And you know part of the reason why you know I I ran

The first time is sort of during that first dot-com, and we were organizing in the mission, you know, against like live work loss, against these big kind of dot-com office projects in the mission. And we would turn out five hundred or more residents to community meetings, to hearings at City Hall, we'd show up with 500 people and

the supervisors, you know, the vote was all all juiced, all done before we got there. So

James Ferrigno+ (32:17)
Uh-huh.

Chris Daly (32:18)
the supervisors are ducking meetings, their doors are locked, five hundred people are in the board chamber saying, you know, vote this down and then they voted up eight to three. you know, that's not the kind of city hall that I wanted to see. So I'm like, we gotta we gotta unlock the doors, right? We gotta we gotta open the doors and windows so people from the communities can get in here because it's supposed to be the people's

you know, the people's house. And and so part of you know, part of the the method to the madness of of my years on the board was figuring out how to create as much space as possible. you know, you you could think of it as sort of being, you know, in football, American football, you think of it as being like a blocker, you know, downfield, getting downfield and trying to clear space for

folks to come in behind you. And I you know, I think to some extent we were successful in in creating that space. yeah, it's hard to say exactly, right? Because you don't have the sort

James Ferrigno+ (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (33:24)
of the the alternative version of events, but but I think you're right. Some of it is just creating space.

James Ferrigno+ (33:34)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that was that was successful. And I think that's really important in America. American politics is so it's just this duality with the the two parties and both of them been drifting to the right over the last forty, fifty years. And in Europe, other countries and in the United States in the past, there were multiple political parties because just

To be able to represent different philosophies and different people's points of view. And right now I think it's we're really a disservice to have only two political points of view, because in reality there's myriads. There's as many really as there are people. But the more parties you have, if you're going to have a party system, if you're not going to do it individually, I mean, look at it. There's all these actual philosophies. There's

Endless different kinds of socialism, of communism, beyond that, anarchism. and it's really this really wide spectrum, but in the US it's just reduced to this tiny narrow margin. So the more I think that can be pushed out, just the better it is for people's ability to be able to express who they are and express it in a political way through influencing,

the powers that be in the government that's like you were saying, supposedly theirs.

Chris Daly (35:07)
Yeah, I I agree. We'd we'd be better off if there was a system that allowed for you know, more parties and sort of more diversity of thought. though right now I I would say that it does seem like the action is in a battle for the parties. and what you know,

James Ferrigno+ (35:27)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (35:28)
there's a there's a a very a very real, very live debate and fight in the Democratic Party right now over

James Ferrigno+ (35:35)
yeah.

Chris Daly (35:36)
you know, its vision.

for

the future. a lot of it is generational. and I think it's long past time for for that kind of internal

you know, debate. I would say, you know, San Francisco is, you know, not on the vanguard of this at the moment, but over the years

James Ferrigno+ (35:56)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (35:57)
I think, you know, you've seen that kind of discussion even within the Democratic Party, in San Francisco. I think nationally you know will benefit from from this this dynamic and this discussion.

That's happening.

James Ferrigno+ (36:15)
Yeah, I th I think so. I think San Francisco has been important in the past, being a city where you're usually the mayor and the whole board of supervisors and almost all the elected officials are all Democrats. So it allows you to see the different shades within that party. So you really can see, you know, there's and there's a whole spectrum there. That's what I was It'd be interesting. It'd be nice if they were divided up into different camps.

But they are in in reality, but we just don't they're not labeled that way. So because you'll see on the Board of Supes, there's the people that are highly conservative, people that are maybe what Republicans used to be, and then people that are a little more moderate, and people that are liberal and people that are actually progressive. So there's really I don't know, you could divide it any way you wanted, but certainly at least like four different camps of people on the board of supervisors. And I've watched them, you know, kinda

Watch it ebb and flow and kind of come back to more liberal and then go back again. But you do get to see that the diversity within that party and that there is not agreement, you know, within that party.

Chris Daly (37:31)
No,

come i it's interesting being doing political work in a in a purple state. So I I do my political work mostly

James Ferrigno+ (37:38)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (37:39)
in Nevada now where I'm the political director for the state education association. and you know, there is a a good bit of you know, we're supportive of the Democratic candidate for governor who's trying to oust the Republican incumbent governor right now in Nevada. But

probably most of my energy and time is still spent battling other Democrats just around what

James Ferrigno+ (38:04)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (38:06)
what vision we're carrying forward in terms of you know in in that party. So in the the San Francisco sort of model you know maybe not you know may not be transferable exactly, but there are elements of it of it everywhere.

James Ferrigno+ (38:29)
Yeah. Yeah, that that that I think is really critical nationally too. It's a really important battle for that party because the it's gonna take that party, you know, getting rid of that old guard with the old ideas to be able to really be successful. and you know, consistently. and from what I can see, this is just, you know, predicting things in politics, but

That change could be, you know, the thing that does it, that really throws it over the top and allows people to really start to have a say.

We'll see. We'll see what happens. you

Chris Daly (39:12)
I hope so.

James Ferrigno+ (39:12)
know, there's been changes. I d I love like Bernie Sanders, for instance. He

They had defined socialism as it was just the worst thing. They're trying to do it again now with communism, you know, you know, more crazy way. But but Bernie really single handedly changed that word and made it okay. Most people are see it positively. Most people, not even just in this area, but I think throughout the country, it's not the negative thing it used to be.

And that's I think that's that's pretty good progress.

Chris Daly (39:48)
Yeah, I agree. I I mean I I can remember a couple of times in office where there was sort of a discussion of socialism and you know, was I socialist? And my answer to that was, well, I support public education, public health care, public housing, and you know, giving the benefit to the little guy, so call it whatever you want. Pretty much my my response.

to that, which like

James Ferrigno+ (40:17)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (40:20)
I don't you know, I don't really have time for your labels. We're we're we're fighting for housing.

James Ferrigno+ (40:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. It's true.

Chris Daly (40:27)
But yeah, that's that's all

that's that's socialist. That's socialism.

James Ferrigno+ (40:32)
It's a s it's a real slippery word 'cause nobody really knows what it means 'cause it can mean almost anything. So I mean it means government support but the degrees of it are limitless. So does that mean if you have a fire department you're socialist, you know?

Chris Daly (40:48)
Yeah, I mean you get into these descriptors which aren't entirely helpful sometimes. Sometimes they're very useful and you need them. Sometimes they're not helpful. Like, you know, do you need critical race theory? maybe in academica you do on on the ground, you know, we just fought for racial justice, right? We just said racism

James Ferrigno+ (41:12)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (41:13)
is wrong. And there's, you know, there's

racism in society and in systems, right? you know, so I sometimes the nomenclature hurts. and so, you know, this latest I guess you know the the Trump folks and the right or Fox News or whatever is on you know, th this latest thing going after whoever it is the Mamdani success is socialist or communist and you know, I mean I think, you know

Mayor Mamdani's doing the right thing, you know, he's just sort of delivering these policies, which by the way are socialist, but are also extremely popular with an overwhelming majority of New Yorkers. Right? That's the correct, I think, political way to deal with you know the talking heads who are just gonna or the political operatives who are just gonna, you know, throw these you know, smear campaigns out there is you just go and deliver

James Ferrigno+ (42:16)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (42:17)
the programs that are popular. And you know, my day job is I fight for public schools. The good news is guess what's extremely popular with an overwhelming majority of the

James Ferrigno+ (42:31)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (42:31)
public? Public schools. one of the most popular things. So you know you you you can you can ride that a pretty long way and also public schools are

James Ferrigno+ (42:43)
Yeah, it's

Chris Daly (42:44)
incredibly important so people get that

James Ferrigno+ (42:49)
Yeah, I think there there is a there's a disconnect between what people actually want, what they know they want, and what who they might vote for because they've demonized some word or some group. And the same people that maybe f support public education will vote against it because if they've been told it's socialist or communist or something. I think I'm hoping, knock on wood, that

I think there's been so much of this

the mischaracterizing the lies, the we're there's such an onslaught of it now and demonizing of people and things and just everything that I'm hoping it reaches just a level where people where it just falls apart, where people stop believing it. And it seems like that might be starting to happen. There's signs for sure.

Chris Daly (43:51)
certainly

a generational shift

James Ferrigno+ (43:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Daly (43:54)
that's happening and it's about time.

James Ferrigno+ (43:58)
Yeah,

it is. Been waiting a long time, working at it a long time.

How do you see the political situation now as compared to when you were you know twenty five years ago when you're in San Francisco? like how different is it for you personally?

Like how does it affect you?

Chris Daly (44:16)
Hm. I'm not sure I totally understand the question, so if I am going the wrong way, please sort of funnel me back to to where

James Ferrigno+ (44:27)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (44:27)
you you're think you're going. I mean

I don't it's twenty five years ago, you know George W. Bush was the president. Right?

James Ferrigno+ (44:40)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (44:41)
just elected. and we thought that was bad, war in Iraq.

It's

significantly worse now. from the presidential political perspective.

James Ferrigno+ (44:55)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (44:56)
You you talked about, you know, the ICE occupations. I mean that was n not that INS and ICE weren't a thing. 25 years ago they were, but the you know, just you know, the intensity of it, this the the mean spiritedness of it.

it's it's it's next level. It's it's you know, I think a a full step closer to fascism. and that is

James Ferrigno+ (45:27)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (45:28)
a dangerous place. As someone who considers themselves anti fascist, as I think most I hope most people in this country are against fascism. you know it's it's concerning. I think

you know, economically, you know, I've now two college age kids, right? One who's a senior San Francisco State, one who's gonna be starting at USF this week. you know, their opportunities out there in the world seem more limited. It should be the other way around, right? They're the opportunities should be expanded.

James Ferrigno+ (46:16)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (46:18)
So, you know, that's a concern for me personally, you know, for my kids.

My wife and I frequently discuss the prospects of our son graduated from college and moving back in to live with us, right? That's a more normal thing now, I think, than it was. It wasn't unheard

James Ferrigno+ (46:41)
yeah.

Chris Daly (46:42)
of twenty-five years ago, but I think it's you know, statistically and culturally more of a thing now. So you know, that's that's been on our minds. you know, and so I think there are changes that are

it kind of dark and concerning and there are changes that are limiting and concerning you know but you sort of have to look back at those you know

more positive or more hopeful or inspirational moments like that fight back against the ice.

James Ferrigno+ (47:27)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (47:28)
in particular in you know in Minneapolis. just inspirational organizing that happened and you know it was everyday people. I mean it was activist network networks and community organizers and you know community based

institutions involved in that, but it was a lot of everyday people too. and so, you know, hopefully, you know, there's there's hope. And we talked about the shifts with the younger generation. So not that I'm counting on my kids specifically, but my kids generation, they'll have a lot of work to do, but I think they can do it.

James Ferrigno+ (48:09)
Mm.

Chris Daly (48:12)
Just gotta have hope.

James Ferrigno+ (48:15)
Yeah, and I think like you touched on this too, it seems like that

Though things do look, you know very dark. a lot of the the activity that has gone on, the quasi fascist fascist activity has resulted in really bringing people closer together. If you look at

what's happened with ice going into cities, the people there meet their neighbors that they've never met and all these people are organizing and becoming a a solid group and this is happening a lot of places because of that. And it really, really helped bring people together and it's like

I mean, just strategically it looks like, well, you went in there and made a lot of people angry and got them to all organized and now they're ready. You know? They're seasoned now. So they're gonna be hot a lot harder to deal with in the future. And and this happened in Portland. I mean, it's happened so many places. LA. And here it's like watching them re basically get run out of the city by activist is like

You know, what were they thinking? It's like they're not they don't really know what they're doing. They don't really have a clear strategy and that's good, for for the people. And if the people are organized and do understand what they're doing, that's that's and not just on that level, but you know, with elections and in in so many areas, p things are getting activated and turned on and very positive things are happening everywhere.

That's I can see that just as a as a as a reaction to the to the darkness. So I think there's hope.

Chris Daly (50:10)
I agree. I

mean in the in the end community necessarily has to be the answer. and that and that's happening. And

James Ferrigno+ (50:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Daly (50:19)
hopefully it's strong enough.

James Ferrigno+ (50:23)
Yeah. I'm gonna say it is. It seems to be. It seems to be.

Let me ask you a couple of questions to move towards wrapping up here. If you could go back to the beginning, what would you tell yourself before you started being active, politically active?

Chris Daly (50:50)
Jeez.

I d i is there

James Ferrigno+ (50:53)
Is there anything?

Chris Daly (50:56)
some sort of you know back to the future time space loop problem

James Ferrigno+ (51:02)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (51:03)
that I need to be concerned about? Because maybe I just avoid that entirely.

James Ferrigno+ (51:05)
Mm.

Chris Daly (51:08)
I I'll say I I you know, I don't know. you sort of

James Ferrigno+ (51:15)
Or what would you tell a young person now? I guess is what that question really says.

Chris Daly (51:17)
You know, you I'm

I I'm I'm a believer in sort of learning by doing and you know I think

pretty pretty happy at least in that part of my life,

James Ferrigno+ (51:30)
Mm.

Chris Daly (51:30)
with just having gone out and and and acted on my my beliefs and my convictions. And so hopefully, you know, in terms of creating space for others, you know, that's that's helped others who've who've come along and seen the example. I mean I know that oftentimes

it appeared that my political opponents or detractors wanted to use me as an example of what not to do. but I I attempted to keep on keeping on anyway. And yeah, you know, I'm happy I did that and I hope others can just act on their beliefs and do what's right and you know, there's all sorts of corny slogans like being the change

that sort of thing. But you know, it's real. Like y you can go and when you work in community and alongside others you can you can go and do

Things that are important. So that that's that's the lesson I'd I'd like to leave.

James Ferrigno+ (52:38)
Okay.

Can you think of something that

Americans, since we're in this political system, should know about the system, should know about you know, what's something that would benefit people from understanding that they don't currently understand?

Chris Daly (52:58)
We're

f finally getting to the whole topic of your of your of your of your podcast.

James Ferrigno+ (53:04)
Yeah.

Chris Daly (53:07)
yeah.

Like I I in terms of what folks should know, like

This is like a this was a hard question. Maybe what got

James Ferrigno+ (53:18)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (53:18)
me sort of spun around a little bit,

I don't know if there's sort of a a teachable experience or or or moment you gotta find your people, build community with them.

engage. you know don't let the powers that be, you know, tell you you can't do it or stop you from doing it. You just kind of power through, figure, figure it out. you know that that's not always but oftentimes the the best way to to move forward. there's no

James Ferrigno+ (53:56)
Mm.

Chris Daly (53:59)
I mean, don't know. in politics there's a lot of there's a lot of a lot of bullshit. but

There's no reason why

if we build together we can't win and and win the things

James Ferrigno+ (54:16)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Daly (54:17)
that we need and win the things that we want. you know there's a lot of obstacles, you know it's very stiff resistance and opposition. but we still have the numbers and you know like I said, I I wasn't supposed to win my race unless I got more votes than the other candidates.

you go and put the numbers together, you can, you know, they'll throw increasingly strong obstacles obstacles against you and you just sort of not need to navigate. but I think you're right. There's cause for hope and we can win.

James Ferrigno+ (54:57)
Yeah, I I agree with you're saying a community basically working together, not being isolated, you know. I remember I saw Kirk Vonnegut speak UC Irvine decades ago, and he repeated this many times. Geta gang. Get a gang. And

The older I've become, the more clearly I can see what he was saying and that really organization, community, family supporting each other is really that's what it's all about. And that's that's what gives you power and success.

Chris Daly (55:41)
That's it.

James Ferrigno+ (55:43)
So yeah.

Alright, Chris, do you have any last words?

Chris Daly (55:52)
No, not really. I appreciate you reaching out and thinking of this sort of washed up old San Francisco politician to come and chat for a little bit and looking forward to to following the program.

James Ferrigno+ (56:09)
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you being on the show. I think I had a good time exploring some of these issues with you. So thanks again.

Chris Daly (56:18)
Take care.