Say It Anyway

James Ferrigno (00:09)
You're still searching for that breakthrough that always feels just out of reach. What is your true life path and how do you finally find it? Welcome to Say It Anyway, the podcast where we help you unlock the breakthrough you've been waiting for so your true life path can finally come to life.

Each week we share powerful practical tools you can use right now to start transforming your life. You'll hear raw, honest conversations with people from all walks of life, people who've found their way forward and are here to share mindsets, strategies, and wisdom that help them get there. I'm James Farigno. I've helped people reconnect with their power for years.

I'll guide you beyond surface level solutions into a deeper way of seeing the world, one rooted in connection, courage, and open-hearted dedication. This is your space to think differently, live boldly, and finally do the thing you were meant to do. Let's get started.

James Ferrigno (01:07)
Welcome to Say It Anyway. I'm James Farino and our guest today is Dominic Vucci who has a background as a practitioner and teacher of intuition medicine and spiritual practice. Dominic has taught for many years as one of the faculty members and teachers at the Academy of Intuition Medicine in Sausalito, California. He also has his own intuitive spiritual coaching and counseling practice.

Dominic's approach is aligned to an ancient philosophy of non-duality, as well as the present time practice of connecting to the healing power of our innate spiritual wisdom and connection to Source. Welcome, Dominic.

Dominic Vucci (01:50)
Thank you. Great to be here.

James Ferrigno (01:53)
I'm glad to have you on the show. ⁓ we've known each other through the Academy for about eight years now, I think.

Dominic Vucci (02:01)
Yeah, sounds about right.

James Ferrigno (02:03)
I appreciate you being on the show. Let's just get to it. What led you to become an intuition medicine practitioner and counselor?

Dominic Vucci (02:10)
Yeah, my story is a little unconventional and just that rather than a conscious seeking spiritual journey, I, in my wild youth, crashed a car, came close to serious damage, but luckily came out unscathed. But it really started me on a search to ask questions.

James Ferrigno (02:34)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (02:38)
be like, what is going on? Where did this come from? ⁓ Is this a message? ⁓ Do I need to get the message? Is the next time going to be something more horrific? So for whatever reason, that started me on a journey of sorts. And I sought out different teachers and not to get a answer, but just get some insight, get something going. I didn't even know what I was looking for. So came across ⁓ Francesca McCartney who teaches.

the academy developed, the academy curriculum, teacher of meditation. And at the time, didn't have any background in meditation, but she offered to have me try out the classes, see if I would like it. And it just really spoke to me on a very practical level. The idea of being more centered, more yourself, more present, ⁓ just felt like it was ⁓ a good, down to earth, practical way of going about things.

James Ferrigno (03:09)
Yeah.

Dominic Vucci (03:35)
So from there it just grew in terms of a practice and the rest is kind of history, but that was my starting point.

James Ferrigno (03:44)
How did your personal healing journey influence the kind of work you do now?

Dominic Vucci (03:48)
Yeah, I think this is really a cool question because I feel like each of us has a unique, it's kind of like our individual fingerprints, know, our snowflakes all being different. I think there's a genuine offering that comes through our experience. That is to say, I don't believe that we are somehow broken and we got to get fixed. And once we get fixed, we have something to offer people. I think the journey.

the process, what we go through is what we're offering. So somebody I spoke to 10, 15 years ago may have been where I was at and that's what they needed to hear, know, because that's where they were at. So I think, you know, wherever you are in your journey, that can be a very powerful offering, just speaking truthfully about your experience, your perceptions, what comes forward as ⁓ offering to others.

But I would say for me personally, given my background, my story, my upbringing, ⁓ I think it's just very similar to what I just said, really supporting people in finding their truth, not working towards something, but really getting in touch with what is here, what is available, what is their kind of path. ⁓

Yeah, having people connect with what is true within themselves, resolving conflicts or challenges to come to that place that's maybe buried under something, you might say.

James Ferrigno (05:29)
So kind of having...

respect for who you already are rather than feeling there's something wrong with you or that you're broken, which I think can be an impediment to what you're trying to do when you believe that there's something wrong with you.

Dominic Vucci (05:36)
Yeah.

yeah,

absolutely. And how many people get caught up in, ⁓ I'm almost there and I just have to do one more lecture or graduate one more class, get one more degree. ⁓ And all the while suppressing or ignoring some part of them that's kind of calling out for connection. So I think there's a great power in saying, hey, let me pause right here, listen more deeply and connect.

with that essence of who I already am.

James Ferrigno (06:20)
So kind an awareness perspective, focusing on just awareness.

Dominic Vucci (06:23)
Yeah,

yeah, another way to frame it is continuing the pattern. I think I'm growing, but maybe I'm just acting out my wounding. That is to say, I grew up in a house maybe where it was never enough and I always had to produce and I had to always outperform the other guy. Well, here I am in my spiritual work trying to outperform, trying to outdo, trying to accomplish.

James Ferrigno (06:50)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (06:51)
And maybe the healing, I'm just kind of bringing up your random example, but maybe the healing, giving that storyline is not to perform, not to try. ⁓ It's rather to get underneath what that wounding was, what the impetus was. Get back to ⁓ childlike innocence prior to the patterning that started up in the first place.

Can we just be here in this moment in a deep and accepting way and get out from under all that ⁓ activity?

James Ferrigno (07:29)
Yeah, I can really relate to that. know myself when I grew up, it ⁓ was really instilled in me to work hard and that working hard would get you where you want to go. You'd achieve your goals, you'd be happy. And I definitely took that into my spiritual practice and spent many long hours working hard at it.

Dominic Vucci (07:39)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (07:54)
And

⁓ just, then, well, it's not working. better work harder then. You know, that's the answer. And then that really becomes a treadmill of.

Dominic Vucci (07:59)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (08:07)
kind of working for work's sake, you know.

Dominic Vucci (08:10)
Yeah, yeah, never quite feeling like you're getting to that deeper place. So like you say, just activating more of the patterning, working harder, longer, whatever.

James Ferrigno (08:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's kind of a this endless spiral to Well until the place you figure out that that's what's happening. Yeah, yes

Dominic Vucci (08:31)
Yeah, and so a lot of my practice

is around coming to that great place of present moment, ⁓ of just allowing an awareness of what is right here, not trying to have it be a certain thing, not package it up, ⁓ not have it change, ⁓ shift, be better than, ⁓ be different. ⁓

James Ferrigno (08:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (08:58)
really creating an opening for just an acknowledgement and embrace of what is actually here right now. Sounds so simple. I call it simple, but not easy. Sometimes there could be emotion. And here again, we tie back to whatever story we have. Maybe emotions weren't allowed in our household. So coming to emotion is kind of difficult, but it's simple. So simple, but not easy. That act of making room.

James Ferrigno (09:24)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (09:26)
for what is right here, it can be extremely profound and it's really at the heart ⁓ foundationally for all the work that I do.

James Ferrigno (09:39)
Absolutely, am completely on board with that. ⁓

Back to you, when did you first realize you had intuitive abilities? Was there a process to learn to trust those?

Dominic Vucci (09:48)
Mm-hmm.

You know, I don't see myself as different, ⁓ somehow more gifted. ⁓ It's something I was really drawn to. Yes, if I look back in time, definitely being a sensitive child, ⁓ picking up on certain things that other people didn't pick up on, ⁓ subtle stuff, ⁓ impressions, ⁓ maybe knowing somebody was gonna call before they called.

James Ferrigno (10:04)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (10:25)
⁓ having dreams that then played out and came true. ⁓ But it was never like, my God, this is such a weird, special gift. It was just seemed like normal, sensitive life experience. But what I would say is anybody can concentrate and, you know, here we are coming back to work, but attune to their own intuitive capacity. ⁓ So just listening more deeply.

James Ferrigno (10:48)
Mm.

Dominic Vucci (10:55)
Yes, there are some practices that can be employed to develop that. That's why the Academy of Intuitive Medicine is there as one option to, you know, enhance this practice, if you will. But yeah, I don't know that it was sort of quote unquote a special feeling, but always being a bit sensitive. you know, when I came to the Academy and...

James Ferrigno (11:16)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (11:21)
Meditation as a practice, mentioned, you know, a sort of traumatic, this car crash experience I mentioned. ⁓ But for me, it was like ⁓ turning the table rather than feeling sensitive and sort of bouncing off the walls in the world, being able to work with that sensitivity, kind of put it into practice in a way that helped me understand that it can be a benefit. Do you want to walk around in the world oblivious?

Or do you want to channel that sensitivity in a more manageable way? Is kind of how I've termed it in the past.

James Ferrigno (12:02)
Yeah, interesting. ⁓

Yeah, food for thought. ⁓ Can you describe a typical session with you if someone were to come to you as a practitioner, as a... ⁓

Dominic Vucci (12:20)
Mm-hmm.

James Ferrigno (12:22)
come to you, then what might someone experience coming to you?

Dominic Vucci (12:27)
Yeah.

Yeah. I've been doing this for quite a while. And what keeps me going, what keeps it interesting is that every session is different. ⁓ So it's really ⁓ that playful curiosity about ⁓ what might unfold, what is here available in the space. So it's not so much coming with a rigid ⁓ practice per se. I do this and then I do this. What I would say is, ⁓

My practice oftentimes is over the phone. I will have a brief conversation ⁓ to just connect ⁓ and then I will get quiet for a moment or two, close my eyes and internally just ask the question, ⁓ what is highest and best to come through? ⁓ What is that offering? So...

kind of directing my intuition, my curiosity on an intuitive level towards this idea of what's highest and best for the client. And in that, I'm really emptying myself, letting go of thoughts, ideas, advice, giving all the things that you might bring to the table. I'm letting all of that go. I'm just simply creating and opening ⁓ sort of a clean open container for what might show up that's highest and best.

And in that space, ⁓ my intuition takes hold and images come forward and messages and symbols. So it starts a bit of a narrative and we start a little bit of a dialogue. And oftentimes it's me describing what's coming forward. And that which is coming forward is really from that highest mass place. So you might call it a reflection.

of what their higher spirit is communicating to them as one way to frame it. And sometimes it's a conversation about points, things to consider, ⁓ different avenues of thought and perspective. So it can be, just as I've described, a reflection of something higher, something more informed from them. It's not my advice giving.

James Ferrigno (14:27)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (14:53)
I've had clients call me with all kinds of questions and I'm like, I'm not qualified to speak on this. However, let's go into old, the sacred space, this intuitive space and see what shows up. So it's that sort of independent informed field, which is being tapped into rather than a personal experience. There's a time and place for therapy and experts.

And for me, this is something different. This is holding sacred space for spirit to kind of be reflected.

James Ferrigno (15:31)
So you're holding space for the person you're working with and seeing what comes forward for you and for them kind of in the moment.

Dominic Vucci (15:41)
Yeah, I would say it's a... Absolutely.

It's always moment to moment, ⁓ continually coming back to this surrendered state of, have nothing to say, however, this is what's coming through. constantly ⁓ pinging their spirit, you might say, having their spirit communicate what they are processing. It doesn't help to give them ⁓ some kind of lesson of what I think is best.

if that's not in alignment with them. So I'm really tapping into what is the purest, clearest communication that they can have to inform their next step. I have no idea what that is, but their spirit does. So it's helping them get connected or communicate with their own spirit. And for me, that's incredibly rewarding. And I often get comments and...

know, emails afterwards, that was really great and that was so helpful. I feel like myself again and I'm like, well, that was you, you know, so thank you for the compliment. But it's really them connecting with themselves.

And again, it's a beautiful thing to be a part of, but I don't take credit for those aha moments or those breakthrough thoughts or considerations. It's really me just picking up with that angled focus what their spirit is showing for them.

James Ferrigno (17:12)
Yes. This really reminds me of something that's been coming up quite a bit for me lately, which is the idea of service and being of service to someone else. ⁓ For me, what I have found recently is that it's being of service to the other person, but also to myself, but also to the moment source, whatever you want to call it.

Dominic Vucci (17:42)
Exactly.

James Ferrigno (17:42)
And

it's kind of this triad of service that you're doing it. Does that resonate with you at all?

Dominic Vucci (17:50)
Absolutely. At the Academy, we have different sayings related to the practice, the teaching of intuition. And one is, give a healing, get a healing. So that is holding this healing space, providing this space for someone to connect with their spirit. But in doing so, you are raising your vibration. You yourself are getting in touch with your own spirit. So it's, you know, just as you say.

James Ferrigno (18:02)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (18:19)
know, source all around, whether it's in the context of connecting and offering, you know, being present and availing yourself to this intuitive process ⁓ or some other aspect or perspective. It's all activating and connecting with this underlying source experience.

James Ferrigno (18:43)
Absolutely, I love that. ⁓

Holding space. So this is something you hear a lot about and maybe is a little bit not completely understood out there. Maybe you can, know, what does that mean to you holding space and how does that come into your practice?

Dominic Vucci (18:50)
huh.

Yeah, it's a main pillar of what I do. As I've described, it's not so much ⁓ me giving advice. I've been through this before and take my advice. It's quite the opposite. It's a real refrain from a personal advice-giving perspective and an emptying out that is creating an open, clear container, as I mentioned before. So holding sacred space is that process, holding a... ⁓

clean, you might call it spiritually sterile, container for them to drop in and be present and get a strong sense of themselves. What good is it if I'm adding a filter or some particular spin to it? So holding sacred spaces is again, really a core part of the practice for me. I've heard it described as holding truth. So the idea of associating sacred space with ⁓ field.

of truth, encouraging a truthful engagement with one's own experience or process they're going through.

James Ferrigno (20:14)
Good, yeah, I've found that personally that for me it's a heart opening activity and that it's holding space with compassion for self and other and. ⁓

What's your view on that?

Dominic Vucci (20:37)
think it's all, ⁓ all of the above. It's really beautiful to put it in these different frames of reference so different people can come at it. But I think it's all the same thing. ⁓ You're creating that openness. ⁓ One client ⁓ may hear the language of heart-centric softness, caring, compassion. ⁓ Another may just really tune into the resonance of, I'm out of the way. This is a safe space for you to share.

James Ferrigno (20:48)
Yeah

Mm-mm.

Dominic Vucci (21:07)
whatever

is going on for you. So yeah, all of the above for sure.

James Ferrigno (21:12)
So there's, guess there's an infinite number of ways or as many ways to look at it as there are people. And yeah, you we all have our own. Yeah, I conceived of it in so many different ways. I know myself and you never know at one moment, you know how you can hear something a hundred times and then just one time you hear it slightly differently and it really just gets through and you're like, ⁓ the holding space, now I get it.

Dominic Vucci (21:18)
Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

Exactly. For me, it was self-love, know, growing up in a family where, you know, it was what you did and how well you did it. And so just that kind of conditioning. And for me, it didn't really click when someone said, you need to love yourself. But one day, boom, it just occurred. It just broke through. So it was the right moment at the right time. And that brings up a good point about my own practice.

I can't tell you how many times the message coming through, this reflection of their spirit makes perfect sense. I'm like, wow, that was really a beautiful sentence that just came out of me. Not my thoughts, but just a reflection, me piecing together the intuition and offering it back to the person. really, it really stood out. I wanted to write it down and read it later, but it doesn't get through. It didn't quite click. It wasn't the right timing. And then come to find out.

you know, a week later, a month later, the same client says, hey, I had a breakthrough, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, we just spoke about that. I literally just mentioned that three weeks ago. So what I'm trying to say is it is that practice of honoring that space. It's almost like a gardener, you know, going out and tilling the field and doing the things and preparing the space, but not trying to control when those flowers grow, when those flowers blossom.

James Ferrigno (23:06)
You

Dominic Vucci (23:08)
It's got its own timing. yes, you can cultivate the space, but when the person's ready is when it activates and when they get it. You can't pound something into somebody. And just like you can't say what's right for them to hear, you're just offering out of this sacred space, this held space, ⁓ what is coming forward? What aligns with your intention for highest and best, for really nurturing that sacred space?

James Ferrigno (23:21)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (23:38)
creating that opening, but then they'll get it when they're ready to get it. And your words are maybe a helpful part of the process, ⁓ but who knows what it is. It could be like walking down the sidewalk and, you know, just seeing a little flower grow through the cracks in the sidewalk and they're like, ah-ha-ha, you know. So you just don't know what that final piece of the puzzle is that helps wake up them in that way.

James Ferrigno (23:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ Yeah, the touching on the self-love part, I had the same thing where people said, I heard it for years, self-love, love yourself. I had no idea what that meant. I would just kind of put up my arms and go, that's meaningless to me. That means nothing. How could, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I really didn't like it.

Dominic Vucci (24:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I used to get frustrated. I was like, don't keep telling me this. ⁓ tell me something else. Tell me something I can

James Ferrigno (24:36)
Yeah.

Dominic Vucci (24:37)
work with or something I can take some action. Because I was the producer, the action guy. I would strive and work hard. Give me something I can work hard at. Self-love is too amorphous. I can't work hard at self-love. So at the time, that was my assessment.

James Ferrigno (24:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dominic Vucci (24:55)
but things change over time, of course.

James Ferrigno (24:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very similar in that I, yeah, I want practical tools and results, you know, right away. And, so yeah, that was, that was like you said, very amorphous. And, I think I did, ⁓ maybe you can, I'll share a couple of things, but I, I learned to start to break through when that self love idea with, ⁓ it means taking care of myself. Like, so if I'm.

Dominic Vucci (25:04)
Yes, exactly.

James Ferrigno (25:27)
hurt, I take care of myself. So instead of continuing to push myself when I'm tired, I stop and rest instead of not, instead of when I hurt my arm, just continuing to lift boxes and getting hurt worse, I stop and go, wait a second. Maybe I should put a pack of ice on that. And I, that started giving me, okay, that's self love, like taking care of your body. I think that was at least something solid enough that I could get a grip on it. ⁓ I don't know. Did you have any, any things like that with self love?

Dominic Vucci (25:37)
You

Ooh, that is a good question. ⁓ I think it was just maybe more gradual for me over time. I don't know that it was a instance where things broke through. I just kind of felt like in all the readings I was doing, you know, at this point, thousands, it just, you know, the patterns, you know, the message slowly starts to seep through on my end as well. ⁓

James Ferrigno (26:10)
Hmm.

Dominic Vucci (26:26)
And I would say it took the shape of something along the lines of the fullness of character. So if we're saying ⁓ this healing practice is about tuning into one's own divine nature or the essence of who they are underneath their programs, imprints, and patterns, ⁓ know, isn't self-love then, you know, pre-existing.

And can I get out of the way for that fuller expression of who I am? So slightly different flavor to it, but you know, again, we all have our different paths and ⁓ maybe there was something I could have done early on and gotten the message, had the breakthrough, but that was my experience, a slow roll over time, just suddenly feeling like, hey, there's a fuller dimension of myself and can I soften right here? Can I create a opening and be...

James Ferrigno (26:58)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (27:23)
more tender and listen to these other aspects of my experience.

James Ferrigno (27:31)
Yeah, good. That's good. yeah, I think part of that is I think I've found that

It's not so much doing things. If there's anything to do, it's to cease doing whatever it is that I'm doing that's getting in the way.

Dominic Vucci (27:52)
I'm sorry.

Yeah, I love it.

James Ferrigno (27:57)
So it's not really about.

Dominic Vucci (27:58)
Yeah, that's become.

Yeah, definitely part of my practice big time is like ⁓ feeling that impulse to do, do, and be like, okay, hold on, what's here? What's arising? So I have a daily morning meditation practice and oftentimes I'll just sit there and say, okay, what do we got? What is here? And it's not so much, what are we gonna do about it? Where are we trying to get to? I'm sitting here meditating, I want a certain outcome.

James Ferrigno (28:06)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (28:32)
No, it's quite the opposite. It's just like this morning's meditation was about this crazy dream that popped up and had me really stirred up and it was very vivid. you know, it was a process of just like calmly witnessing what was there, ⁓ allowing sort of a calm presence to take its form again. And if I'm ever, I don't know, too busy and I get right into my day,

James Ferrigno (28:52)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (29:00)
I noticed that I carry that same intensity or energy. So it's nice to have a morning practice where I just kind of reset, pause. Okay, that was the dream state. We're gonna go forward now in ⁓ more of a holistic fashion, bringing the fuller dimension of awareness as opposed to like, I'm running from this crazy story that's not even here. It was an echo from a dream state.

It's nice to have that reset.

James Ferrigno (29:34)
Yeah, absolutely. love that. So a couple of things you mentioned were control and outcome and kind of the attachment to outcome control. Do want to open that box and see what you find in there?

Dominic Vucci (29:41)
yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

Absolutely. I mean, I'm no expert on any of this. I'm just this person who came along with their own practice over time, you know, felt like there was something to share with others. But I never at any stage said, ⁓ I've mastered it here, you know, come follow me. So the idea of exploring the dimension of control. ⁓ Yes, happy to speak about it, but.

James Ferrigno (30:07)
Yeah.

Dominic Vucci (30:16)
I would not be coming from some kind of expert advice place. Just in my own process, ⁓ like the self-love we just mentioned, ⁓ at some point you start to realize, there's control. It creates an outcome, creates some kind of condition. But is that a ⁓ limiting, ultimately a limited expression? Or is that really correlating with a sense of opening expansiveness? ⁓

James Ferrigno (30:20)
Hmm.

Dominic Vucci (30:45)
the expression of a fuller dimension of who I feel I am. So I think just over time you start to dial into like, ⁓ this is me being myself. And the control starts to feel like, that's not really myself. That's a small part of me. So I may be caught up in a moment that is calling for a controlling action, but I know kind of in a larger sense that that's not where I want to exist or.

perpetuate my expression. So I think it's just over time you start to realize, ⁓ that didn't feel good. That didn't feel like all of me present. I felt like a limited version. That felt like me being rigid. And that's not what I want to foster. So I forgive myself and tomorrow's a new day. Let's hit reset and come at it with that fuller dimension. So it's not so much controlling the controller, right? ⁓ It's really just...

James Ferrigno (31:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (31:44)
bearing witness, bringing some awareness, softening, and coming back to that wider expression or that more open sense about my own expression.

James Ferrigno (31:56)
Hmm. Yeah, really, really great. yeah, I've found that ⁓ often like say there's something, I don't like this behavior in myself or maybe someone else. And so I'm going to try and change that is kind of the default thing. And I have found that even just in a practical level, rather than trying to change it,

Just the simple act of being aware of it seems to actually can really transform things. ⁓ Many times I've just the awareness and then, wait, it went away. I'll just, yeah, Just the being aware of it and kind of being compassionate and aware, not critically aware and beating myself up.

Dominic Vucci (32:39)
Yeah, it's no longer that thing.

Yeah, exactly. often,

yeah, oftentimes what I'll see in client sessions is, you know, some form of judgment. And they'll say, I hate that I'm so judgmental about myself. I really gotta work on that. I did good last week, but then this week I just really screwed it up. And I'm like, wow, so judging the judger, like, is that the thing or?

James Ferrigno (33:02)
Mm-hmm.

You

Yeah.

Dominic Vucci (33:19)
There's a lot of different variations on that, but doing the thing to improve the thing is not really a path for success. So as you said, awareness, ⁓ bringing compassion, ⁓ sort of diffusing the bomb, so to speak, the activity. ⁓ Maybe the judgment deep down is tied to, you know, what, not feeling good enough or whatever the story may be. And so nurturing.

James Ferrigno (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dominic Vucci (33:48)
compassion, receiving the experience with openness can be the actual engagement that diffuses that, you know, expression. So I think, wow, look at me judging the Judger. Ah, having a little humor about it, having a little openness. That's just what occurs. I add the history I had. I'm bringing awareness. I'm softening. I'm considering this.

⁓ those actions feel different than trying to control or get on top of it with, you know, again, using that same dynamic or energy.