Say It Anyway

James Ferrigno (00:01)
Hello, I'm James Farina and welcome to Say It Anyway. Our guest today is Elizabeth Cruz and welcome Elizabeth.

Elizabeth (00:10)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really do appreciate being here.

James Ferrigno (00:15)
Glad to have you. So I'm going to dive into it. ⁓ You said, I think you sent this to me in a message. What happens when the path you thought you were on suddenly disappears? And that was intriguing to me. ⁓ When you look back, what was that moment of disappearance for you?

Elizabeth (00:17)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

That's a really, really deep question. Really deep. So what was the moment that the path disappeared?

James Ferrigno (00:50)
Yeah, what happened there? ⁓ How was it for you? What was your experience?

Elizabeth (00:54)
Yeah, I think that it's a really, like I said, it's a really challenging question because it's sort of like, did it disappear all of a sudden or did it not? Was it gradual? Right. So I had to sit and think about think about that particular question for myself. And I feel like

The path can change for different reasons for different people, right? That's kind of what I, in the years, my wisdom, my experience now looking back is that for a person, could be an accident, right? Or it could be someone dying and their family or something kind of tragic happening, losing a job, losing their wealth, right?

It could even be something as simple as what happened to me, which was the beginning. Didn't mean it wasn't the end, but it was the beginning, the spark of a different thought.

James Ferrigno (01:51)
Hmm?

Elizabeth (01:52)
And so when one begins for one meeting myself, when I had a different thought around what I wanted to experience in life, that sent me on a different trajectory in my life.

So a little background, I'll try to keep this brief and somewhat interesting. But I grew up in a very small Latino family in Puerto Rican-American and I was the all good child, right? The all good child, you're to go to school, you're going to get good grades, you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer, you're going to do really well. And I was good at academia and I was groomed to go to college. So, right?

The path before me was I'm going to do well. I'm good at academia. I'm a good student. I'm a good daughter. I'm the good kid, right? I do all the right things. Well, that was great until I got to college. And then when I got to college, I was like, oh, whole new world for me, a whole new experience for me. So I distinctly remember, and this is how the path disappeared, right? I'm weaving it so the path can, you know.

James Ferrigno (03:01)
you

Elizabeth (03:02)
show

what happens when one's path disappears. or changes and they don't even know they're making the changes because there's that butterfly effect. You know what I'm saying? So, long story short, as I distinctly remember one day coming home from college, I went to ⁓ a small state school, a university in about two hours from Cleveland, Ohio in Columbus, Ohio. And I remember coming home.

James Ferrigno (03:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Elizabeth (03:30)
I remember literally, I remember having the thought because it starts with like that little, again, different people have different experiences. But for me, it was like a little thought. I was driving the car. I was getting onto the highway, getting onto the on-ramp. And I think it was night, but I had this thought of like, boy, I would really like to know myself better. I'd really like to have different experiences. Boy, I'm tired of being the good girl. What's it like over there?

James Ferrigno (04:01)
Hmm?

Elizabeth (04:02)
And that's kind of what sparked the difference, the change of my trajectory in my life. And I can't say that it was good. I mean, I'm just not gonna say they were good times, they were bad times, but really that desire to want to know myself, it was the umbrella to make all my choices, whether they were conscious or unconscious. from that place,

I went to college with those thought that thought, and then I made choices based on that. went to, I left my small school. I went to the largest school in, in the house in, in Ohio called Ohio State University. I wanted to become a vet. And then I got to there to, to vet school and I discovered, you know, drugs, sex, rock and roll, bad people, alternative people. found all this as whole other world that I can experience, but at a cost, right?

James Ferrigno (04:55)
Yeah

Elizabeth (05:01)
cost was, you know, when one inserts drugs into life, that often comes with some characters are not so great. And there I went right into this experience where my boyfriend was abusive. He was a drug dealer. I got lost in drugs. I started to fail at school. found graphic design slash art. I thought it would be really easy. It wasn't really easy. There was a whole thing around my identity being destroyed. Right. So long story short.

James Ferrigno (05:01)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (05:31)
is that that path is really hard for me and I got lost in the system. didn't have the resources to figure out how to get myself back on my feet. Now, I'm gonna pause there because what happens, and the wisdom here for me, I could go on and on about this, but I'm not going to, but the wisdom here for me and the turning point, well, the wisdom is spiritual awakenings.

You know, everyone has their spiritual awakening, some time or another in my belief system, right? One will awaken in one way or another. And so it depends on what it is. Like I said, it could be an accident, it could be a death, could be loss of finances, could be whatever it is for each person. So I was in the process of finding out who I was, but only through, and most people find out through adversity. So I was up for a big game around spiritual growth. So I think for me, like, even though that was really hard,

And it is still hard because I'm still, it's like 30 years. It's been 30 years since I had those experiences. And now I'm, I was 27 when I, well, how do I say it? I was 18. So it was really much 40 years, however, but there has been different incarnations of myself and the different paths I could have taken. But when I realized coming back home and being as old as I am, which is 57, and I'm on my second set in return that I am,

James Ferrigno (06:35)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth (06:57)
looking back and saying, okay, it didn't turn out like I wanted it to. Okay, now what? Now what do I go from there? What did I learn? And that's kind of the space that I, you know, the takeaway from here is, even though I had all these experiences, what was my soul up to? What was my soul wanting to do? And how did I, how do I take what I experienced? And how do I turn lemons into lemonade and move it forward from this?

James Ferrigno (07:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth (07:26)
from this place because I'm not dead yet, but I'm also in the place of recreating myself. So the path I thought I was gonna be on was like, I'll get married, I'll have kids, I'll have the job, I'll have the house, I'll have the diddity-diddity. But instead I wanted a path of, oh, spiritual awakening, I have this adversity, that adversity. And now I'm like, okay, wow, I'm still in this process of...

James Ferrigno (07:29)
Mm-hmm.

you

Uh-huh.

Elizabeth (07:53)
cleaning up all the things that happened to me, right? Some PTSD, ADHD, and seeing like, wow, what happened? So it's not over, but it's like, I can definitely see the wisdom because what I've gained in that as a person, right? My worth, my inherent worth as a person is compassion, kindness, patience, love. I understand myself well. That was my goal.

James Ferrigno (07:56)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-uh.

you

Elizabeth (08:21)
from the very beginning to the very end, know myself well now. And I know other people quite well too. So those are intrinsic gifts, but sometimes I have a hard time translating that into the value of our capitalist society. So I'm going to stop there because I could keep rambling, but I'm not going to.

James Ferrigno (08:24)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm, okay.

Yeah, that's really interesting. mean, that's... I'm very familiar with a lot of that. It's similar to my path. And other people I've seen. And I notice most people who are, whatever you want to call them, spiritually focused light workers have...

Elizabeth (08:50)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (09:03)
inherent skills of healing and helping others and lot of caretaking skills and insights and intelligence but it doesn't always translate into something you can earn a living at. know, so, mean, and there are therapists and things but, yeah, and, ⁓

Elizabeth (09:19)
No.

James Ferrigno (09:30)
Yeah, so a lot of people become coaches and then for now we know that's saturated. But it can, but I think, that's the big part, right? That's the hard part is learning who you are. You know, the other part is more,

Elizabeth (09:36)
Yeah, yes.

James Ferrigno (09:51)
Finding something external. But learning to know yourself, that's a lifelong thing. I we never finished that journey, but ⁓ even starting on that is a huge, huge accomplishment. It was the accomplishment, really, of being on this earth, in my humble opinion.

Elizabeth (09:59)
Uh-uh.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (10:12)
In my so humble opinion. Yeah, I mean that's why we're here is to know ourselves first, love ourselves, then we can help others build things, do things. But that's a prerequisite to anything else.

Elizabeth (10:16)
you

Yeah, yeah, knowing the

self loving the self. Yeah.

James Ferrigno (10:31)
And I know I'm still on that ⁓ self-loving path myself. There's all these different parts, know, ooh, I love myself, wait, boy, but there's this little part and this part. So collecting all those different pieces and loving them all.

journey you know that's that's a journey as well ⁓ so what about go ahead

Elizabeth (10:48)
Yeah, totally.

James Ferrigno (10:54)
was just going to ask, ⁓ just thinking about the different pieces, now that you've, guess fairly recently in last few years, had the understanding of ADHD, and I was wondering how how is that part of your story, and ⁓ how does naming it kind of change the way you look at yourself, and how has that helped you understand yourself?

Elizabeth (11:18)
Yeah, ADHD. Thank you for asking that question. That's a tough one because ⁓ I'm not 100 % diagnosed as ADHD, but I'm pretty sure I have it. And I think I explained some of the behaviors that I had and some of the ways I was thinking because ADHD, ⁓ particularly in women, it goes undiagnosed sometimes for an entirety of a lifetime.

James Ferrigno (11:29)
Mm-mm.

Elizabeth (11:43)
But I feel like the research right now, at least research for me, has been making its way to me, I guess, via the algorithm, or however way it works its way to me. But it's to me, and I now get to understand, like, ⁓ wow, I wonder? ⁓ yeah, okay, I'm not crazy, I'm not broken. I think that's the thing that I'm looking at, like, I think for a long time because of the choices I made is,

James Ferrigno (11:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. ⁓

Elizabeth (12:12)
The story I painted a little bit earlier is like, want it, drugs, sex and rock and roll. And I ended up getting involved with a lot of people that weren't good for me. And it sent me down a trajectory which really did not serve me for a very long time ⁓ in the sense as far as our society. And so the internal structure or my thought process was like, what's wrong with me?

James Ferrigno (12:27)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (12:36)
I could never put my finger on it. Like, why am I so broken? Why can't I figure out? Why can't I be like other people? Why am I so odd? What's wrong with me?

So I think that's kind of what led me to transformation work is what we call this, right? This is transformation work like coaching, ⁓ workshops, and self discovery, whatever the different things that I partake in over the years when I was in San Francisco. But I think... ⁓

Finding out I had ADHD was one of the things that helped alleviate, like, what's wrong with me? Right? Why do I behave the way I behave? And so what it leads to for me, and there's another thing I want to talk about too, as well as in addition to ADHD, but it's like, ⁓ it's giving me the keys to the kingdom of who am I? And so for me, it removed the shame.

There's a shame and a inferiority, like, oh my God. So it sort of begins to lift that aspect. And then what that allows is compassion. What allows is forgiveness. What allows is like, oh, I'm just wired differently. It doesn't mean I'm bad or wrong. I'm just wired differently. So there's that understanding, which is fabulous.

James Ferrigno (14:04)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth (14:08)
I'm going to my intention is this year to get my actually actually be diagnosed of like ADHD, but I'm pretty damn sure I have it. And then the other thing I want to talk about in this work of understanding the self is that ⁓ I studied the enneagram pretty deeply for a long time and it's it's definitely a very, it can go deep. So I've kind of scratched the surface, but enough to know. And that's another thing I think for people in general, if you don't

James Ferrigno (14:13)
Mm-mm.

Elizabeth (14:33)
If you're on this journey of knowing the self, because that's kind what we're up to, right? It's like, who am I? What do I want? How do I make better decisions? ⁓ one of the things that I was really into ⁓ is Enneagram. Enneagram is such a great tool, was, as, still is, of understanding myself and understanding the other. So I think when I understood that I am as a for Enneagram, which is basically the romantic, okay.

It has other names, but the romantic, sort of tragic, romantic artist type person. This also gave me some relief around understanding myself. Like, ⁓ fours have a tendency for melancholy. ⁓ fours have a tendency for ⁓ deep feeling, deep emotion, and sort of living in reverie. know, like, ⁓ not quite grounded. So it's like, what's interesting about that and understanding how to ADHD is that it really

James Ferrigno (15:09)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth (15:31)
gives this place for forgiveness, for compassion, for like, know that this is how I function. I'm not trapped in this forever. not. I don't have, there's no unconsciousness there. There's consciousness. And now I begin to like say, ⁓ there goes my thing again. There goes my thing again. Right? So, and I think this, this piece for me leads into sort of this meditation place, right?

James Ferrigno (15:54)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (16:00)
where I'm like meditation is like and mindfulness is two things meditation and mindfulness is what I've been working on practicing over the years because again it gives insight to myself right of like why do I do that thing okay hmm I don't know I'll stop pause here

Don't pause here.

James Ferrigno (16:23)
Yeah,

so many different ways to go from there. yeah, I'll just comment on the enneagram can be, I had my enneagram years and yeah, it can be really helpful. think it's any form of, you know, any...

Elizabeth (16:27)
Yeah, I know.

James Ferrigno (16:44)
form of divination that's been refined can be really useful. I different things work for different people. I found for me the Enneagram worked really well. ⁓ Astrology, true astrology, not newspaper astrology works really well. ⁓ The I Ching, really have a, the I Ching seems to be really a big thing for me, but a tarot.

Elizabeth (16:59)
Right, true astrology.

James Ferrigno (17:09)
So, like all these different things and all these tools, it's nice to kind of use, you know, explore all of them and see, because it can really help us understand ourselves and where we're going and what our choices are, and realize that we're choosing. And it's, we're not just on some path that we're not choosing, you know.

Elizabeth (17:20)
Yeah.

Yes.

James Ferrigno (17:32)
Which actually reminds me of where you started with kind of on a path you didn't choose as a kid, right? So you were living up to others' expectations. And it kind of, then you needed a lot of time to find your own path. Like what, who am I without other people's expectations, you know? And I can see that that's gonna take some time. But everything you learn there is useful, It's all had to be.

Elizabeth (17:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (18:01)
is, must be. So, yeah. And the meditation, yeah, of course, is so many different kinds of meditation, so many different types. So maybe we can talk about that. You had mentioned Rain Elizabeth Stichney did I pronounce it correctly?

Elizabeth (18:03)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Stick me, think.

If it's something else, she'll let me know.

James Ferrigno (18:28)
I won't make any jokes.

Okay. So, yeah, I mean, how has she helped you? ⁓ maybe explain what type of meditation is she doing and how has that really assisted you in your process of exploration of yourself?

Elizabeth (18:48)
Yeah,

um, rain. I just love rain. Rain's like the best.

It's so hard to encapsulate a person's influence on you when they're both your teacher and your friend and your colleague. Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah, trifecta. And we're currently working together right now. Rain helps. I think with rain in general, some people, when you get around them, they have a frequency.

James Ferrigno (19:06)
Yeah. Wow. Trifecta.

Elizabeth (19:27)
right and they resonate at a certain frequency and I think that rain has this particular frequency where it's just calm even when she gets angry she's still calm and she's been meditating for I don't even know how many years and that's her main thing and rain will always be a meditator and

continue to give her gifts out there in the world. But the relationship with Rain and I, like I said, is a trifecta. She has always kind of been there when I'm in transition. And...

Like when I need her the most, she's there. ⁓ way back when I was, how do I say this? I was in a community and then I left a community and I came home because I was doing sort of a sabbatical away with this community for about a year in San Francisco. And I came out of the community and I came home and I was lost. Being lost is sort of a theme for my life, which I don't necessarily like, but being lost is...

James Ferrigno (20:34)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (20:37)
Sometimes just a way of... ⁓ It's what the universe has for you. Sometimes I have to accept that which is, but sometimes... What do they say? What's that saying? You're lost? Wait, not all people who wander are lost? Maybe it's that one. I don't know if there's another one. don't know if there's different ones, like sayings for being lost, but whatever. Anyway, so I was lost. I came home. I didn't have my community anymore.

James Ferrigno (20:55)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Elizabeth (21:07)
I was just back to myself. mean, literally going to the grocery store was kind of hard because I was like, oh, because my community, they cooked for me and they did everything for me and all I had to do is participate and stuff in the community. Wayne was there for me and holding a meditation class at this meditation studio not too far from my house called the East Bay Healing Collective on Alcatraz and 45th and Berkeley.

And I forget how I even got there. Maybe she sent an email. I don't remember. But anyway, so I went and I would go. I would go on a regular basis. And so by going to these meditation classes with Rain, I was able to sort of begin to regulate and become part of the community and begin to heal whatever was going on within me for that particular period of time. Like it was a home away from home, sort of my cheers.

And from there, I started to coach. I built my coaching practice in that space. And Rain sort of kicked me off to become a coach. It wasn't necessarily her, because I had other coaches and coaches trainings and the such. just because she brought me into the community, I met other people that were meditators, other facilitators in that space. And I began to create my life. So for a good chunk of time, know.

Even after Rain left the community, I was in that space teaching, coaching, working with people, helping them, not necessarily with meditation, but with relationships and the such. And then fast forward, now I'm in a big transition now and Rain also said the same thing. She's been there, she just popped up. This East Bay Healing Collective is closed. They're in-person office and now they have an online office, online presence.

And one of the founders just passed away. So Rain Cape came back into my world, made a notice and said, hey, we're gonna be kicking off this meditation in lieu of our friend passing away and the potential of reviving the online community of this world, the East Beehiving Collective. So I came back in and that has been going on for last six months where she and I are working together.

And she's helping me sort of in this next transition kick off the next thing, which I'm not quite sure what it looks like, but we are hosting monthly meditation events where people can come who have anxiety or who are feeling lost or need a place just to kind of rest themselves and have one hour where they don't have to worry about anything, you know, and like just be in the presence of this high-frequency being who is just wanting the best for you. That was a long answer, but that's answer. That's what RAIN does.

that the meditation does, soothes the soul and helps one to become just really present. That really is the access point of meditation, is really becoming present in the moment. I'm going to stop there.

James Ferrigno (23:57)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, presence, that's a big one. Yeah, I found that being embodied, grounded, present.

authentic and there's more in the list but they're all just different aspects of the same thing and it's it's really about showing up coming to earth and actually being here i think a lot of us are we're barely here you know we're kind of half here and like oh god this place is terrible god it's so awful it's painful i don't know how we'll be here so so we're kind of having when can i leave

Elizabeth (24:29)
Yeah.

Agreed.

I know. It's so true.

James Ferrigno (24:54)
So, ⁓ yeah, but that's kind of what makes it painful. You know what I mean? If you really commit and dive in and become present and connected, there's still some pain, but it's much easier. It becomes easy, much more easy. So.

Elizabeth (24:57)
Yeah, it's true.

Yeah,

have to say, I'm going to cut you off. get excited because I know these topics. I love this topic, right? Because it's like being, and I don't want to know if you had more to say on that. Did you have more to say on that before I butt myself in here? Yeah. the thing is, yeah, being present, being in body. And I remember when I was on, it's always when I come home to Ohio, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio now. That's kind of where I grew up. And I remember specifically the day that I chose to come and be on earth. And it was like, I was

James Ferrigno (25:13)
Yeah.

Go ahead.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth (25:38)
45 or 44 or something in the mid 40s and I was on my dad's treadmill in his basement and things you know things were challenging they've always been challenging for me as an adult ⁓ and I'm running on the treadmill like frustrated angry and thinking to myself what did he what I don't get this ⁓ human ⁓

I don't get it. don't want to be stupid. I hate being human. Why did I say yes? Why? Why? You know, and as I took that step and took that step and took that step and then I was like, girlfriend, like, you know, sometimes Spirit talks to you and it's like, has it. It's not it's not a concept, right? It goes into the body and you're like, I got it. So Spirit said, girl.

James Ferrigno (26:23)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (26:36)
Choose to be here. You have been one foot in and one foot out. Choose. Would you like to choose? And I was like, as I'm running, what? Yeah, you're not choosing to be here. You want to go. And we understand why, because it sucks here. It's hard. This realm is not easy. It's not for the faint of heart. But you chose this particular path for whatever reason you chose it, right? So in that moment, I got really present and I was like,

And there is this, ⁓ I feel like I was a puffer fish, like puffing up to protect myself around all the stuff that was happening. I didn't want to deal with this or deal with that or feel this or feel that and be prideful. And in that moment, I was deflated. was like, And then I was like running and then walking and then just kind of.

I'm still doing the thing, but I wasn't at high speed. was just kind of like, okay. And then my, you know, and this is a very interesting experience. I don't know about for you, but you know, thinking you are this, you know, especially if you have a, uh, uh, uh, you're intelligent enough, your mind works quickly and you're smart and you know how to work the system. There's a little arrogance that goes with that. I know it's just how it goes when you think your, your mind is smart. You know, it's smart enough. I mean, I'm not, I'm, I'm smart enough. I have to work.

James Ferrigno (27:56)
yeah, there can be for sure.

Elizabeth (28:03)
hard for whatever I have. But when that gets deflated, that arrogance, know, boom, and then you're like, ⁓ then I had to be like, what are I said to myself, okay, okay, spirit, what are these humans do on earth? I kind of hate it. This is also for any ground, which is like not wanting to be ordinary. So what do I have to be to be ordinary? What do I have to do to eat humble shit pie and be like, all right, what do do?

And literally, the universe is very humorous. One foot in front of the other sister, what you're doing right now, which is walking and running. was like, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,

James Ferrigno (28:42)
Nice.

you

Elizabeth (29:02)
I'm gonna hand it back over to you. I'm like, and I'm done.

James Ferrigno (29:06)
Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. That's enough. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had that experience myself of choosing. think I've had a couple of them where I chose it, but then, you know, I had to re-choose it a couple of times. So, but the first one, I think I was 50. So hope to anybody else out there, you know, if you're 50 and that hasn't happened to you yet, it still might.

Probably will probably will so Yeah, yeah if you're doing anything so yeah and Yeah, there's a lot there so

Elizabeth (29:40)
if you're on the path.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (29:54)
How does the anxiety factor into this? as you mentioned...

having this part of yourself that you, you you puff up your intelligence because you have other areas in which that you don't ⁓ perform as well. You might not have, there's other areas that you look at as ⁓ weaknesses that you have. So, and think anxiety can really be seen as a weakness, right, as something wrong. And this also goes back to when you were talking about being broken.

Elizabeth (30:26)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (30:31)
So what's happened as far as believing you're broken and then the process to maybe seeing that you're not broken and now how does the anxiety function in your life maybe when you do something challenging?

Elizabeth (30:50)
anxiety. ⁓

Let me think here for a second about that.

Anxiety is a interesting beast. think... ⁓

I didn't understand that I've pretty much had anxiety my entire life. I still have it. I still struggle with it. I'm not medicated. There is conversations in for me to potentially get medicated, but I'm doing all kinds of things to potentially not be medicated. Not that everything wrong with be medicated around it. just, I'm not totally ready for that.

And only because it's like I'm just realizing that I spend a good chunk of my time.

trying to navigate life on top of that. So it's a chunk of time that gets taken away from me that it's like I'm dealing with it no matter what I'm doing, right? And.

There is a correlation in my recent understanding between me having ADHD and anxiety and depression. So right, these are, I think they're called comorbidities. So there's something to be said about that. So I'm in this inquiry around it and what it looks like for me to manage it. But again, I think that there's a naming of it and understanding what it is. it's basically chemistry and the brain.

and how it all works together. And not to simplify it in such a way that it's just brain chemistry, but it is experiences one has over a long period of time that exacerbate that to which you have internally. So, ⁓ gosh, but I think that for a long time, ⁓ the conversation was I was broken.

Why can't I control this part of myself? Why am I so nervous? Why do I talk really fast? Why do I act out in certain ways? Why do I make these weird choices? There's a litany of why, why, why, why, why, why, why.

that I have and I have and I imagine people with ADHD and or anxiety ⁓ maybe have these same conversations, right? I don't know, I can't speak for you all, but I can only speak for myself that, you know, there was that. And so.

Now, right, with having wisdom, it's there's compassion, more compassion, right, for the anxiety. The willingness to bring in different types of practices, mindfulness, breathing techniques, ⁓ somatic practices to help the body ⁓ deactivate the nervous system and

⁓ I forget what it's called. want to say the parasympathetic nervous system. think that's to activate that instead of the fight, flight, fame, those types of things in the body. Again, I'm in the process of learning about this stuff, so by a means I am no expert. But the one thing I am quite good at is tracking the self internally to find out what the heck's going on. So broken. Am I broken?

James Ferrigno (34:18)
Yes.

Elizabeth (34:37)
in a different, mean, the concept is still there. But what I can do now is give myself more compassion, more kindness, more patience. And I think overall, I think a lot of this internal work that I've been doing is to, you know, be like, sort of the quick reaction about you're broken, that's shameful, what's wrong with you? It's like, my brain and my chemistry just work kind of an odd way.

You know, and I have to be patient and compassionate with myself, which is interesting because that translates to the other, right? And it helps, like if you have it, James, or if one of my friends have it or whatever, I'm tracking for that. And I'm also being like, hey, it's okay. It's okay. And there's another thing too about ⁓ some of the healing around anxiety and the removing of some of these ideas, right? That something's wrong with you as a community, like community.

being with other people who also have understanding, compassion, forgiveness, and love you just as is, right?

So I think, yeah, just think that there's something, ⁓ these are practices, right? We all need these practices of how to navigate through our society and how to be like, I'm still worthy even if I have X, Y and Z.

James Ferrigno (35:45)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (36:06)
Maybe not to everybody, but to the ones, the people that matter and also to myself, right? It's like, you know, anyway, right? The ones that mattered, one and the ones, right? But really it's the self anyway. Okay, I pause. I'm going to pause.

James Ferrigno (36:07)
Absolutely.

Yeah. Yes. The one that matters.

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ you're pressing

pause. Yeah, I struggled with anxiety, severe anxiety for a long time.

Elizabeth (36:32)
Really? I didn't know that.

James Ferrigno (36:34)
and ⁓

and I now work with people and help them with anxiety and I've let's throw this out there that

Elizabeth (36:41)
Mm.

James Ferrigno (36:47)
tell me what you think of this. What I see is that there's three different stages that people can be in. And one is to suppress their fear. The other is to have anxiety. The other one, the third one is to accept their fear and experience it and process it in a natural manner, which usually is fairly quickly. And that

Elizabeth (37:02)
Okay.

James Ferrigno (37:17)
The way I define anxiety is just fear that you're not familiar with and not comfortable with so you fight having it. And the fight, and since each emotion has a thought attached to it, the thoughts that are attaching to this fear are re-triggering it all the time. you'll have your, because emotions don't last that long. They last maybe a few minutes at the most.

And then you'll experience this fear, but then you have these thoughts that will keep the thought connected to it as, you know, I'm broken, perfect thought, right, to re-trigger that fear. And that's what I see anxiety as, is simply fear that you're not comfortable with. Once you accept it and can walk into it, and I really learned this, the basis of this, the dating and relationship.

Elizabeth (38:15)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (38:15)
stepping into that fear and acting anyway. Just doing whatever you have to do and going, you know, accepting it and just doing it. And then once you accept it, know, time after time, once you do it a lot, you get comfortable with it and it's not so bad anymore. then, you know, people, normal healthy people have fear, you know, it's a normal human emotion that comes up. It's just not accepting it.

But that is a stage of development though. The first stage, you still have it, you're just completely unaware of it, you're burying it and it's coming out as anger or violence or whatever. And the second stage, when you're starting to awaken and develop, it comes out as anxiety. And then the next stage, and this is everybody. So either somebody, the very few people who've gone through it and kind of now can cope with their fear and their other...

But other than that, you're either experiencing anxiety or you're suppressing your emotions. So it's not like it's a rare thing that just a few people have. And this is what, this is, think, really not even just with anxiety, but with other things, with being broken. It's like most of the people I talk to and hear of and just everybody think, oh, it's me. I'm the one who screwed up, you know? And most people think that.

They think they're different from everyone else. Because they are. Everyone's unique, right? And there's this, think, what has not done the society globally any favors is the concept of normality and sameness. That there's this thing that we're all supposed to be and we're not. Because it's a construct created by somebody else. So we believe we're broken because we don't fit the pattern. But the pattern isn't real. Nobody fits that pattern. So...

Elizabeth (39:45)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (40:14)
You know, we're not broken. There is no broken. Nobody's broken. We all just are at whatever stage we're at, you know? So, yeah, those are my thoughts on that. ⁓

Elizabeth (40:14)
Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep, agreed.

Yeah,

anxiety. ⁓ It's a topic. think a lot of people, think that was really why I liked you breaking it down about not wanting to feel it and then expressing it in different ways, anger, frustration, whatever it is that they're trying to deflect. And then being with anxiety, which is like being with the fear, whatever, being, I maybe not accepting in between somewhere, and then really just being with it, which I've...

James Ferrigno (40:30)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

you

It comes up,

Elizabeth (40:53)
It comes up and then it's like, what do do with it when it comes up? And then the presence comes in and it's like, being with it is terrifying. I'm just going talk a little bit about that. That's okay. I've been doing my best to be with it and that and Rain helps me be with it. Like just being with her, I can feel it come up, but ⁓ it allows me to like touch those places that are just so insanely fearful.

James Ferrigno (41:04)
Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, talk about that.

Elizabeth (41:23)
I remember a second, I have another friend who helps me too. He called me just recently. It was actually my birthday, but he was, we were talking and I was just in the middle of a panic attack and I was like, and it gets so exhausting. As you know, if you have chronic anxiety, it is exhausting. But the thing is, that in order, mean, they always say you have to, you have to go through it in order to burn it off or whatever. have to go through it, not over it or under it, whatever. You have to experience it to let it move. But

James Ferrigno (41:27)
you

Yeah.

Elizabeth (41:52)
that fear of like really just being with it. just feels like a mini death. Like I felt like I was dying. I touched these levels of this fear, whether it's ⁓ childhood trauma, parental trauma, what do they call it? Family. What's it called when it's a family meme or the family, you know, when the family, yeah, your bloodline sort of trauma, you inherit that. there's like, there's whatever it is, you're

James Ferrigno (41:58)
yeah, yeah.

Bloodline.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (42:21)
in the real time you're experiencing it. And there's nothing around, but it's like, I'm being attacked by a tiger and I feel like I'm dying. But the thing is that when I sit with it and the willingness to titrate in and out, touch it, feel it, feel a hole in the system, feel like I'm dying, breathe, let someone else be with me, talk with me about the experience, and then it shifts.

James Ferrigno (42:28)
Yes.

Elizabeth (42:46)
And then I'm in a new dimension, not this perfect, but I'm able to handle a little bit more of what's been going on. So it's just one of the strategies to which I'm working with is actually working with someone like yourself, right? Or anybody else to actually hold me through these places that I feel like I'm going to die. That's what it feels like. That's an ego death. But I'm finding it's one of the ways in which I'm able to sort of... ⁓

mitigate the intensity of that particular feeling and then I can be more functional. And I also think that getting massages are a really good thing, doing somatic exercises are a really good thing, but also knowing that for me, that cognitively I understand that I'm not gonna die, it's just I have to just be with this thing for a little while, like you said, it's just gonna last for maybe like 10 minutes and then it's gone, hopefully.

James Ferrigno (43:23)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth (43:39)
Hopefully, maybe it lasts a whole day, but you know, that's because I've fighting it all day, but...

James Ferrigno (43:44)
Yes,

yes. That's the re-triggering from your thoughts. So, yeah. I'll go through some of my process with that. The first thing that really helped me was admitting it was happening. So would take a journal and write down, am afraid, I am scared, I am afraid, I am scared, I'm terrified, I think I'm gonna die. And I would just write all those things down, because part of it was like, part of me...

Elizabeth (43:47)
Right? ⁓ man.

James Ferrigno (44:11)
was so afraid of the fear, didn't want it and wouldn't admit it was happening. Which just lights up every one of your synapses, right? So then you're just on fire with falling out of life, right? You're I don't know what to call it, thinking you're gonna die and panicking. So first is admit it's happening.

This is happening. I'm afraid. This is real. And the action of writing it down is a physical action so it helps you to get into your body a little bit. And that was the next step is to ground, to embody. And I would even just tap my arms, hit my legs. I am in a body. And I eventually found if I was truly grounded and embodied, I couldn't experience anxiety. Like it can't happen.

Elizabeth (45:01)
Mm.

Hmm. Hmm.

James Ferrigno (45:04)
in your body. And then I would get so that I would go, I would start to feel the anxiety, here it comes. And I go, wait, no, I'm in a body. Just kind of drop back in. It's like, okay. And then you have this little sizzling uncomfortableness, but you don't blow out into that. ⁓ You know? I'm gonna explode. You know? So, yeah. So I would just sizzle there for a little bit in my body, you know? And, ⁓

Elizabeth (45:19)
⁓

Yeah, totally. my god, I just...

I was like...

James Ferrigno (45:33)
but then it would fade, And the next thing I found that was really helpful was to do that, but since it's the brain, since it's that brain thinking things that re-triggers it, like whatever thoughts, I'm broken, I did this before, oh no, what if it never goes away this time? What if the grounding doesn't work? You know, all these things that will re-trigger, right? And what if it gives me a heart attack? And so...

Elizabeth (45:45)
Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Yeah!

James Ferrigno (46:03)
Is that I would do something. Is to carry out an activity so that I'm doing that instead of having time to stew in it. Like you don't want to stew in it. You want to accept it and move through it but without touching it you allow it to do it. You don't do it. You don't stick your fingers in it and go here move on I'm gonna make you move faster and I'm gonna do this to you. And I pictured myself with the anxiety just

Elizabeth (46:18)
Really?

You should rest.

James Ferrigno (46:32)
grabbing it, messing with it, and pucking it, and know, that's really what's happening, and it's going, and that's what's causing it, right? So it's just hands off, just let go of it, let it do its thing, you know, leave it alone. so, and then if I leave it alone and go do something else, something scary, not just anything, not a distraction, but do something challenging that's bringing up fear. So then the fear comes up, I know.

I also found this early on, real fear of something real is much better than fake nonsense fear of nothing. You know what I mean? So like...

Elizabeth (47:09)
Yeah, like what?

James Ferrigno (47:11)
What I originally did, it was during, when I was really experienced, it was like 2003 or 99. There was big protests, I remember, in the city of San Francisco. And there was police and riots and they shooting tear gas and stuff. I like went there. I went, this is my place. And they're sicking the dogs on us, know, dogs are chasing people. And I'm like, this is great, because there's really something to be afraid of. A dog, it's gonna bite me, right? But that felt so much better. I'm not...

advising anyone to this. it felt so much better than the fear in my head, me sitting on my bed going, oh, I'm going to die. It was much better to like, I'm afraid, but there's a real reason for it. Then it was, and that's the difference between fear and anxiety.

Elizabeth (47:41)
You

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (47:56)
You know, fear is just fear. Anxiety is fear that you're poking at and messing with and making worse and yeah, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh

the dating stuff and the approaching women thing. That was good because it's safe but the fear is real. So I'm not actually going get bit by a dog but it's not nothing. I'm not just sitting there doing nothing. So this is real fear and I'll just go through the process and talk to the person even though I'm afraid and that was a huge, huge... If you can find something like that to do where you're doing something a little challenging that causes you anxiety but...

Elizabeth (48:36)
Thank you.

James Ferrigno (48:55)
you know, something to think about. You can think about that instead of stewing around in your own head, which is just... Yeah, that's why I can meditate separately from the anxiety, but like I couldn't meditate while I was having the anxiety, because then it just created this clear space for me to think about more horrible things. So, that didn't help at all.

Elizabeth (49:01)
you

I totally get it.

James Ferrigno (49:21)
So

yeah, do the morning meditation before the anxiety happens. So kind of keep your system. Yes, yes, that's the way to do it. yeah, yeah. So just over there. So yeah, then like when it comes, know, also physical stuff, go out and, you know, run, you know, jump up and down. I were a person who boxed or something, I'd do that. That seems like a perfect.

Elizabeth (49:25)
⁓ Yes! You're get it in before the anxiety comes.

my God, will rain? Sorry, let you continue.

Yeah, right.

James Ferrigno (49:53)
So yeah, something like that. But the embodiment, just grounding really.

Elizabeth (49:59)
Yeah, agreed. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. was awesome. mean, interesting. I never really thought about going out and like doing scary stuff. I mean, granted, I have done a lot of scary things, but not when I'm having anxiety. mean, the thing that I'm like, I'm going to go out and scare myself for real. I was like, oh, I never really thought about that. My thing is more like, let's do exercise. Let's go for a walk. Let's do this. Let's do that. But

James Ferrigno (50:00)
So those are some of my thoughts on that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (50:26)
I think that's a really good tactic to actually go out and scare yourself to death. You're like, then you're like, I'll give you something to be afraid about.

James Ferrigno (50:28)
That's good.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, just to be clear on that, all I had was, you know, something really terrifying. So like that, that was, it was an improvement, but like doing the approach of something actually productive was, that's what actually got me through it. Yeah. The other thing is just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The first part is just a funny story of that's what I found. That's what I could do. So, but yeah, the real, the real healing took place.

Elizabeth (50:47)
Of course. Yeah. And I remember when I used to coach men. No, go ahead. Go ahead. No, you first.

Yeah, that makes sense. like I said, I used to, we have that in common. used to teach, I used to teach men and coach men and they used to, we used to give them the rejection game. I'd go out and get as many noses as possible so you'd get over the fear of talking to women. And it was really remarkable what would happen to them is that they would become in many ways fearless. Other things would drop away and they'd have this different relationship to rejection and to fear.

I'd say they had anxiety, but they did have approach anxiety, which is a type of anxiety with women. It really works. Not that I did it because they did it, because I just was a teacher, they... But the point is, that I think it really helps when you really can continue to face that fear, and particularly with women, and asking them and talking to them, and it helps dissipate and help retrain your nervous system as like, it's actually safe. Women are safe.

And I imagine it translates into other parts of your life as well, right? Making anxiety maybe, right? Making things like, this isn't as bad as approaching 10 women and getting no.

James Ferrigno (52:06)
Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, like something like public speaking can be a great thing to do as well because you get the same type of thing.

Elizabeth (52:14)
Right? yeah. Yes. I did that.

I did that. I did lots of public speaking. So yes, it totally does get you up there and helps your nervous system kind of regulate itself. ⁓ anyway, anxiety. It's actually anxiety in some ways a friend and foe, friend and foe.

James Ferrigno (52:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And just also to be clear, these things work for someone experiencing anxiety, someone in that second stage, someone in the first stage. I ran into this with some guys in the dating field. Them doing it does not result in the same thing. You're not curing the anxiety because it's not there. So you're out here.

Elizabeth (52:36)
Whoa.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Ferrigno (52:59)
different.

kind of premature.

Elizabeth (53:05)
Got it.

James Ferrigno (53:05)
out for that because the guys can get

fake confidence. What I call fake confidence, real confidence is when you're grounded and authentic and connected to yourself. The fake confidence is actually what confidence usually is. When we see people who are confident, that's usually the fake one. It's usually a disconnected ego thing.

Elizabeth (53:12)
Big confidence.

Yes.

You know, like the puffer fish kind of thing.

Yes.

Yeah, that gets complicated, but I know what you mean where people are faking it. They're like, yeah, they're over. I call it the override. And that's something I've done did for a long time, which is override. And I think that's the first level, like what you talked about. There's different levels like that first level where they're maybe I'm incorrect, but that place of like, I'm going to puff out. not going to feel whatever this is. I'm going to overcome it and I'll do whatever unconscious patterning that's there. That's my default patterning to go to.

James Ferrigno (53:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (54:01)
Right. think there's something to be said about that,

which is just produces really awful effects for those. Cause people are like, yeah, that's weird. That's too much over the top versus authentic and grounded. Like you're going to be more like bamboo, right? You're to be like, okay, cool. Yeah. All right. We're good. Well, do you want to get me and give me your number? Yeah. You're natural. Yeah.

James Ferrigno (54:07)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you're natural and yeah, yeah, you're real. Yeah, and the

people who are completely unconscious of it too can behave that way and that's where unfortunately a lot of leaders in the world are that way. yeah, by just pushing through with just bowling through with their fake confidence. So yeah.

Elizabeth (54:32)
Exactly.

Well, that's how they get there.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, good topic. That's a good topic.

James Ferrigno (54:52)
Anyhow Yeah, yeah Yeah,

anxiety is bad. Fear is a big deal right on this earth right there's a loving fear So There's the people feeling it the people not feeling it that have it. Yeah, so well we all have it as human beings

Elizabeth (55:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

it's true, ⁓

James Ferrigno (55:16)
So when did you realize that your pain and struggle and everything you've been through with the anxiety and the breaking apart and coming back together, when did you realize that that could be used to serve and help others?

Elizabeth (55:30)
Good question. That's a good question. A long time ago, like I started getting into coaching before coaching was a thing. Like I had gotten to coaching, gosh, in the early.

like 2010, 2009, right? I started coaching them. And it was then I got to begin to realize like, oh, oh, I think I can help people because of what's been going on with me. Granted, it's always been kind of like, who do I work with? Right? There's always that question because who do I work with and who am I? Like, who am I? It's like, I don't know who I am. What am I about trying to figure out that process and how do I?

help them. ⁓ yeah, probably in the 2010 or like late 20s, 2000s, what do want to call them? don't know what you call them. But yeah, that. And the Aughts. Yeah, I was right there. I was like, what? know it's called something. I just heard that recently. was like, the Aughts. That's what it's called. The Aughts. I freaking love that even though it's very strange. But I do like things that are kind of strange and out there. But yeah.

James Ferrigno (56:27)
hearts.

Yeah.

Lots, yeah.

Elizabeth (56:45)
That's when I started to put it together and I'm still like, I'm still figuring that out. Like I used to coach men, right? That was the thing. You know, I, when I was in coaching school, you know, I was either going to teach via a public speaker coach or I was going to be a dating coach. Cause I was like, I'm a fun date. I don't have a lot of fun on dates. I don't take them too seriously. And, um, somehow I got steered toward the dating. I should have done public speaking, but I didn't. But, um, yeah.

I did the dating and I was men and women for a dating coach and I wanted to help them really with their ability to show up and be confident and have more authentic conversations and such. But I would do a lot of meetups and men would keep showing up to my room. And so I'd be like, my coach goes, honey, I think you coach men. And I said, I guess I do. So.

So I began to focus, I guess I do, I guess I'm a men's coach. And so I would just basically like start catering to them. And I ended up dating, with the nice guys. I guess I dated all my clients, not supposed to. I mean, that's kind of what you do. You kind of romance them to get them to do your program, which is not bad because you really want to give them a service. And I really wanted to give my clients a service as I really cared about them.

James Ferrigno (57:59)
You've all the claims.

Elizabeth (58:11)
And I wanted to give them the transformation of confidence and knowing themself, which is sort of the journey that I've been on. But anyway, so yeah, I figured out how my clients were. I worked with them. I never knew if that was a total fit for me, but really what I was after, like I said, was just helping them find out who are they, give them the confidence. And I worked with specifically the nice guy, the guys who are always stuck in the friend zone and I helped them. And then that went away, right, as all things end. Me too sort of killed my business.

⁓ which is okay, but, and now I'm basically in this restructuring place where I'm trying to figure out like who's next, what's next for me as I get older. Cause that's something I really want to do is, you know, serve, serve others who have, you know, maybe similar wounds, maybe around confidence, maybe around, ⁓ their, their orientations, right. Or maybe it's around their self-worth. Right. And I've been, and you and I talked a little bit about this before we started rolling, but like,

Am I, you know, am I. ⁓

How worthy am I? And is my net worth and my self-worth, they're tied? Are they tied? Or should they not be tied? And I'm, as a person who's a little older, you know, I'm looking at like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, my net worth is not where I'd like it to be because of the traces I made, but that is impacting my self-worth. And so can we begin to tear those two apart and then go begin to look at like, what is my...

What is my worth? And maybe I work with people of color, women of color. I don't really know what it's going to look like, but I know that I'm here to serve and I'm here to help people ⁓ figure out, like just here to hold space and a great spaceholder to help people sort of, hey, come on in here. Let's do this. Let's end community, sort of heal these wounds so we can, as a society, right, I'll do my little part of healing parts of society to say, you know, you're just being a human being is good enough, friend.

I don't know, I think I'm off topic, but I'm not sure, bring me back. What was the question? What was the question? What was the question?

James Ferrigno (1:00:22)
No, no, that's fine. We

were talking about you serving and ⁓ working with people. did you? So, and I'm also curious, like, do you think maybe mindfulness and meditation could play a part in that? does that ever occur to you?

Elizabeth (1:00:28)
yeah.

I think so. I mean, of

course, think with any of this stuff, it's like any of the mindfulness practices, meditation mindfulness, I think that's sort of the basis for just being human, especially in our day and age. I think if we, you know, I would bring meditation into my coaching practices on my working with my men, we would do a moment of silence, right? To kind of gather the self and come to the self because

Like we said earlier about presence, like if you're not present, what are you doing? What's running you? Which is basically a lot of your automatic responses. You don't think about it. You just do, right? Which is if you take a moment.

Feel your toes, feel your bum in the chair, feel your breath. And even now for me, it's like I get excited real easy, right? That's part of my ADHD and my invata mind. It's like, you know, take a breath, but come home, you know, and say, okay, what am I feeling in this moment? But yes, so answer your question. yes. Meditation, mindfulness, always part of my practices.

You know, and that's why I think right now with Rain and I, like Rain is a meditator and she's, I'm hosting her on our platform, which is called the Minil Heart. And it's all about people helping people move through these transitional spaces. wasn't where I, I wasn't, out of where I was and I'm not where I'm going. Where am I? I'm somewhere lost. So I'm definitely.

wanting to help people via this transition in life where, you know, or whatever it is that's going on for you that's making you feel a little uneasy being human and being embodied, you know, so yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I I'm at the mercy of the path that's ever windy and curved.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:02:40)
Yeah, that's one of the ways, that was the inspiration for this show really is helping people that are in that transition phase and maybe are stuck or don't know where to go.

Elizabeth (1:02:48)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm raising my hand over here. I'm raising my little hand over here. Especially, you know, I think as you get older too, there's this thing of this idea like you should be here by now. You should have this much money, these kind of relationships, this set of success. Wait, it's like, oost. Yeah, what are you up to?

James Ferrigno (1:02:54)
Hahaha

What have you been doing?

Elizabeth (1:03:18)
Especially coming back to Ohio, like in San Francisco, we're in a little bubble so we can just be whatever. Like, yeah! And then, like, what you even up to? You ain't got nothing. I'm like, oh, we ain't got nothing. ain't got nothing. Huh. Well. What I have is internal. You can't see it yet, friend.

James Ferrigno (1:03:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:03:41)
You

James Ferrigno (1:03:42)
Yeah.

You're what you have, you can take with you.

Elizabeth (1:03:49)
Yes, and I, one of my spiritual teachers told me this, he's like, look, he said, you didn't sign up for all the exterior goods. And I said, yeah, that's true. But that's what someone would say when they don't have the exterior goods. But still, it's true. The soul, get the soul takes, hopefully, the soul takes these, you know, understandings of the human condition with them into the next incarnation, whatever it is that that soul is up to.

James Ferrigno (1:04:20)
sign up for some of them, at least temporarily.

Elizabeth (1:04:24)
Yeah. Right?

James Ferrigno (1:04:26)
Maybe not all of them, some of

Elizabeth (1:04:33)
Only you know. Only you know.

James Ferrigno (1:04:35)
Yeah, yeah,

for sure, for sure I did. You know, I've thought about this, I'm gonna ask you, since you did the coaching with men, it's like, for me, the most growth I've had, the most success I've had with everything came through learning about dating, relationships, sex therapy, I mean, that's it, that area.

Elizabeth (1:04:44)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:05:02)
Because it's an area that's really challenging. It's an area that there's almost no education on and it's really scary and Especially because you don't know what's going on at all. So just there's just the way I look at it was just an opportunity for incredible growth like

And I'm dividing it into those three areas, that whole focus on relationship, because we do, there is a lot in our society about the self, right? There's a great deal of, I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna know myself, I'm gonna love myself, I'm gonna have a career, I, I, I, I. There's not a heck of a lot, there's some, but on...

I'm going to have a relationship. How is that going to happen? How am going to start that? How am going to continue that? How am I going to work on that? What's it going to look like? Who's it going to be with? Is it going to be with a bunch of people or one person? There's so much there and so little information on it that for me, in the sexuality even more, because that's like somebody took it and stuck it in a hole in the ground and put a big log on top of it so we couldn't find it.

Elizabeth (1:05:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

James Ferrigno (1:06:20)
or something. It's like, where is the information on that? so, yeah, so I don't know, how do you feel about that? I I know I went through a lot of growth with that stuff.

Elizabeth (1:06:24)
I don't know.

Wow.

Yeah, I think that you're right. think over the last probably 30, maybe 40 years is that we're getting more wise about that. And a lot of people writing books about that. But yeah, it's a mystery to a lot of people, because it's not something that we value in society. We do. We value the almighty dollar making money. I mean,

Right, we do, we value that and that's an achievement and independence. That's where I know myself and that's where I've come from. But, you have to, how do I say this? The stigma of getting help in those areas is becoming less, right? Mental health.

James Ferrigno (1:07:27)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:07:28)
therapy, it's everywhere, it's all on my feed. Granted, it's me looking for therapy, but the algorithm gives me what I want. it's becoming less stigmatized. So I think that, yes, ⁓ you have to seek it out these days a little bit more so. And it is challenging. And it is one of the things I am challenged with. ⁓ Part of being a dating coach, there is an aspect, like I'm queer.

And there's an aspect of like, there's some things that like my guys that I was working with them, we were similar, you know, I don't want to approach women either. I'm like, ah, what do I do? What do I say? And there's still, that's still an edge for me where I'm still working out some of that stuff internally for me. Cause the generation I came from there's shame and oh, there's all kinds of things, you know? So, um, I'm a little suspended in that particular place, but I identify it as a place I want to continue working on. But yeah, my growth.

And I'm thinking about it over the sort of like the umbrella of my life. Like it's the reason why I do all the things I do a study is because I want to be more connected with myself and other people. I want to have those relationships that feed me, you know, that that give me the sense of who I am. And, you know, I struggle. I still struggle like I struggle with talking to my dad and trying to like

have conversations and overcome some childhood fears around that relationship and speaking my truth. And especially when difficulties come, like that's a tough one. Like how do you navigate the conflict? Like, and stay connected, but not have it toxic and step into your power and say the thing you need to say. So these are things I'm still working on. I'm not great here, but these are, but this is the juice of life. Like, I mean, what they say, okay, this is cliche to say this, but like people on their deathbed are like,

James Ferrigno (1:09:13)
Ooh.

Mm-mm.

Elizabeth (1:09:26)
⁓ what's one thing you wish you had more of? ⁓ better relationships, right? Or I miss my kids this or right. I made a million dollars. I didn't make a million dollars. So really what we're all after, and this is something that I've been, you know, I'm thinking about doing again, which I used to run authentic relating groups, but starting up another one, because in that every day and coming together or weekly, whatever it is that we want to learn to navigate those

challenges not perfect because none of them were ever perfect but how do you begin to get those skills to navigate like, oh that hurt my feelings. Wow, I'm feeling angry right now. Or I have a story that you did X and I thought Y and here's my story. And the intention is I want to be closer to you. So I feel like, like this basically everything we do is just to like, hi, wanna be my friend? Do you like me? Do you want to come play? Right, that's kind of in nutshell.

James Ferrigno (1:10:24)
Yeah ⁓

Elizabeth (1:10:25)
You know, mean,

this is that is really that simple. You know, again, I went off in a tangent. I love tangents. ADHD at its finest.

James Ferrigno (1:10:32)
huh.

Yeah, you're good at it.

Elizabeth (1:10:42)
Yeah, anyway, yeah, so I don't know. But yes, so the answer your question. Yes, it's it's been a It's it's a fun fundamental teacher whether good or bad You know because if you don't have distinction like Abraham says well if I don't know what I like If I find something I don't like or I do I don't like this and I surely know I don't like this I'm gonna go over here. Well, and so you have to keep

James Ferrigno (1:10:43)
Revel in it.

Elizabeth (1:11:09)
So figuring out like, well, what do want? What do I want? OK, this teaches that teaches the teachers about you and the other person. About what you want in relationship. yes. Yeah, I'm done. What's up, rambling?

James Ferrigno (1:11:26)
I'd like to like just mention one thing you said ⁓ like when you're you something like this that when you're interacting with someone else usually someone in your family or someone you're close to a partner ⁓ and you can get triggered then to remain separate and grounded and in your power and authentic while that's happening and I just thought I'd say that's a high-order skill

And that's something that I still struggle with sometimes. Now like, with people outside your family and relationship, you know, I have no problems at all. But when you get to those really close family and relationships, can be...

Elizabeth (1:12:07)
Mm.

Yeah. I'm not saying I'm an expert at it.

James Ferrigno (1:12:16)
really tough. Just

so we know. ⁓ I am an expert when comes to anyone that hires, really anyone outside of a small handful of people that I...

Elizabeth (1:12:35)
Mm-hmm.

James Ferrigno (1:12:37)
But there's still challenges there.

Elizabeth (1:12:41)
Yeah. Agreed.

James Ferrigno (1:12:42)
So

don't think you're broken if there's something wrong with you, if just whoever's listening, if you can't do that. So.

Elizabeth (1:12:49)
Yeah,

I can't do it that well. mean, if I said that I misspoke because honestly, what what my strategy is my family is and this is not this is probably why I do what I do is because I sort of I'm the quiet one in the family and I try not to I try not to cause too many problems, you know, even if I'm like, you know, like, know, that's great. But let's change the subject. I'm not gonna we're gonna disagree. We're gonna gonna

James Ferrigno (1:12:52)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:13:17)
I love you, but let's change the subject. Okay, let's move on. So I deflect a lot because I don't have the skills. I do have the skills, but it's like, don't feel like for me, where I'm at is to go in when sometimes the consciousness, just not a slight or slander of my family isn't there. There's no point in beating a dead horse when it's not gonna land.

James Ferrigno (1:13:42)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:13:45)
There's no ramp for the conversation I want to have. So I just love them. I love them. I put up my boundary if it's what they need to be and then I move on. I say, okay, it's not worth it because that's not, you know, and then I go to the, you know, I have those conversations with those other individuals who and I can have the same level of understanding. I I might bring them up a little bit depending if they're, I, God, this sounds so arrogant. I'm just going to tell myself this sounds really awful.

This sounds really awful, but like, you know, it's like, you know, I'm talking about like you talk to people and they're like, and you're like, well, let me change my strategy here.

James Ferrigno (1:14:25)
Well,

yeah. Well, I have the same experience. Yeah. So especially if the person is much older, this can happen. But ⁓ I know like in my family, I I was the loud one. So I was the talking one. I did not deflect. So I went right for the center of everything. And so that was fun. That was fun. So eventually I learned not to do that. ⁓

Elizabeth (1:14:27)
That make sense?

well. Wow.

James Ferrigno (1:14:52)
And so, but now I don't do that because a more intelligent way of looking at it, like the way that you're looking at it, a more practical way as well, is to see that some people don't have the context or experience to be able to talk about some kind of nuanced thing, especially in a field of information they're not really familiar with. I there's a lot of people who...

especially I've noticed people the generation before me who don't or are my generation that think of, unfortunately, so do think of something like therapy as something for crazy people that it's embarrassing to do, you know, and especially people that live outside of New York City or San Francisco, you and ⁓ so those people...

Elizabeth (1:15:19)
Yeah

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:15:41)
are not equipped to have a conversation about you know the difference between Freud and Younger. You know what mean? They don't have the awareness of it. It's like me trying to talk about, I don't know, football or something I know nothing about, So, yeah, it's pointless. There's no reason to do that.

Elizabeth (1:15:54)
Right.

Yep.

Yep.

James Ferrigno (1:16:01)
then you're kind of just being arrogant, trying to, then what are you doing? You're trying to shove your ideas down their throats, you know, what's that about? That's a bit of an ego trip right there, right? Just accepting them for who they are. And really, I've learned that...

Elizabeth (1:16:08)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:16:20)
really the true test is really being able to listen and ask them questions about themselves and listen to what they say and just be interested in them. If you can't share what interests you because they're not equipped to do that then you just have them share what interests them.

Elizabeth (1:16:27)
Yeah? Yep.

Yeah, that's my strategy. It's like, I know enough and you know, my intention is to make a connection and to listen, to be a spaceholder and find out what is it makes some tick, even if it's something I don't totally believe in unless it's really offensive and I'm like, I will change the subject nicely. But it's like, I think, and this comes down to just being human, other things I want to say around that. ⁓

It's like just listening, holding space, holding space for the other to be heard. Oh, what I was going to say is heard, felt and seen. People just want to be heard, felt and seen. Maybe hugged too. But you know, it's like, you, can you even with all like for myself, even with all the things I've studied and the things I'm going to study because I love learning about all like anything like about how to make, how to understand myself better and other people better. So it's like, just to

Listen.

Spaceholder, listen. Like even my dad, he's very quiet. Although when he does talk, he's very loud, because he's kind of deaf, he's almost 90. But like I get him to talk because I asked the curious question and I want to find out and go a little deeper. And you know, yes, I put myself on the side, but that's not our relationship. relationship, unfortunately, I wish it was different, but I get that need that met or fed from other friends who can...

see me and hear me. And then my therapist, like she's an amazing tracker and I freaking love her because she models what it is to be in good relationship. But the point is, is that all the stuff, I could be arrogant and be like, but I use all my tools to just connect and listen and be present and hold space. So, and in that way for me, it's A being of service and B making a connection.

and then I get closer to someone. That's ultimately what I want, is to be closer to you.

it anyway yeah

James Ferrigno (1:18:44)
Absolutely. Yeah,

that's the goal. It's the connection not to try and educate other people or talk about something they're not interested in. I think just even traditionally in the United States, mean, people have different types of friend groups. You have your friends that you play whatever baseball or softball with on the weekend. You have your friend you go dancing with. You have your church friends. know what mean? People have different groups of people.

Elizabeth (1:19:10)
Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

James Ferrigno (1:19:14)
not everybody's interested in everything.

Ha ha ha.

Elizabeth (1:19:20)
Nope.

James Ferrigno (1:19:22)
Hahaha

Elizabeth (1:19:24)
No!

James Ferrigno (1:19:30)
Yeah, so let's see, just maybe a couple more questions here.

Elizabeth (1:19:35)
Sure!

James Ferrigno (1:19:36)
So if you had... ⁓

Something that's revealed itself to you recently? A truth? An aha moment? Oh, that's it. Oh, that's what I've been doing. Oh, that's what I... Have any of those happened for you?

Elizabeth (1:19:56)
I think I...

I'm thinking.

I'm thinking like there is this idea about the anxiety, like making friends with my anxiety versus fighting my anxiety. And I spoke to that a little earlier, I think that knowing its chemistry, knowing that I have a hypervigilant sort of...

I don't know what the third part of the brain is. I'm going to say the amygdala. Is that what it's called? The amygdala? Right? Right. So that the animal part of my brain is, yeah, right here. This gets activated, which doesn't mean that in its chemistry firing, and it's also because I've had long term stress. It's also just that the mind will just do what it does because the pathways are there. It doesn't mean that

James Ferrigno (1:20:46)
Yeah, that's one part.

Way down.

Elizabeth (1:21:09)
I'm bad or wrong or whatever, it's just a matter of chemistry. And again, it's another layer of removing the shame of removing the judgment and be like, okay, I'm having an attack. Okay. Doesn't mean all the things I want to make it mean because there's a litany of the, what's wrong with me? I'm a loser. I can't figure it out. can't function like other people. my God. What's wrong? Right.

James Ferrigno (1:21:28)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:21:37)
It's just like, okay, I'm have had, really in a way, really, so the revelation really is like, okay, I will have some thoughts that are not gonna be that nice. All right. Doesn't mean that about me, what it means I'm having chemistry. And when I'm back to my like full access of my brain, cause the prefrontal cortex gets limited when you're in anxiety and you cannot think, it just, you get limited and you become like, oh.

James Ferrigno (1:21:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:22:05)
Everything is really hard to function. So just hang tight. You'll be back. You know, you'll be back. So I think that that revelation is just really like, okay, I'm going to be okay.

James Ferrigno (1:22:07)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:22:19)
Let me do what I need to do to get through this period of time and I'm just going to do whatever is simple. Renee Brown, I forget what she calls it. ⁓ I forget. ⁓

something like she's not gonna be her best self, she's gonna be your ugly self, or she's like, give me 10 minutes, I'll be back. I'm not gonna be my best self right now. Let me go handle my, and she does it so beautifully. I freaking love that woman. love, and I know there's always controversy with all public figures, but I love what she does and how she says it, and it really hits home with me. But when you're in a shame spiral.

James Ferrigno (1:22:39)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:22:56)
you really need some time out to like deal with it, which is also anxiety spiral. Like just let me go deal with it and I'll be back because right now I'm not going to be myself. So I think there's something to be said about.

Okay, I'm going to get through this. Be fine. Just give me some time. Right. And then again, your strategy to defend fabulous, right. Your strategy of like scaring yourself or exercise or even like I've been doing gratitude work, trying to be grateful. And writing's been really good. then, yeah, and writing's been really good about like writing through the mind's issue, like what's really going on. Is that fear there? What's happening? And that sort of soothing yourself that way. So.

James Ferrigno (1:23:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:23:39)
That's

it. Yes. Did I answer the question?

James Ferrigno (1:23:44)
Yeah, I think so. I don't remember the question.

Elizabeth (1:23:44)
Sort of. Never now. I'm just like, do we do it? Okay, Okay, good. Okay. Okay, one more.

⁓

James Ferrigno (1:23:54)
Yeah, you answered a few things. Okay, let's do one more. One more question. So, one final

thing, ta-da-ta-da, is...

If you can give people one, people who are stuck, people who have been where you were with through your whole life of experiences and all your different paths and all your different things, what's the, we were getting really close to that just now, what's the really, one simple thing, one simple thing to do to maybe point you in the right direction.

Elizabeth (1:24:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, for somebody who's struggling with anxiety or blame or any of those, kind of stuff, you know, or struggling stuck.

James Ferrigno (1:24:31)
But really, if you're stuck anywhere,

if you just, you know, don't know what to do, and it could be with your career, it could be with your anxiety.

Elizabeth (1:24:37)
Man.

I think, well, that's such a, it's a tough question to answer.

James Ferrigno (1:24:47)
Yeah.

Elizabeth (1:24:48)
I think there's something, let me pause here for a quick second.

I think there's a space of ⁓ compassion where we want to get to. It's like thinking about your little self, like your little one, like your little person, like your little girl, your little boy, or whatever, however you identify, whatever internally. Just maybe it is that meditative, mindful space of taking, like I just did, pause.

breathe and see who's there. Like, this is about parts work, right? Just like what part of you is feeling a certain way. And it might not come right away and you might not be able to do it for a while. And maybe you need someone to help you, like a therapist to help you sort of go within, but it really is that pause and that breath and that sort of inquiry. What's happening here? Who's, who's talking? Who's here?

What's going on? It might feel fake or it might feel phony or might feel dumb as it kind of does. You're like, I'm just making this shit up. It kind of feels like that. But there's like, really, once you do this practice of just stopping, pausing, listening to the inner self. And sometimes listening is like, it's like, why did I do that? Why did I say that? Why did I say that? Or what was going on there? I was scared.

It says, in Cree, why was I scared? What did I do? How come I did that? Which only comes in those moments when you're still. Only comes in the moments when you're like, and still doesn't mean like sitting and meditating, still might be going for a walk in the park, going for like a bike ride, even on the treadmill, like I was running, like, or even going like with James, going to like a, you know, a protest or something. No, just kidding. I don't know if that works.

James Ferrigno (1:26:57)
You

Elizabeth (1:26:59)
But really, it's I don't know about that one, but like just sitting and being with what is, like maybe it's writing and I'm rambling right now, but there's just something about like stopping, pausing, breathing, mindfulness, inquiry. What's happening there? And also being willing to be afraid, right? And feel that fear, like what's underneath that?

James Ferrigno (1:27:00)
I don't know about that one.

Elizabeth (1:27:25)
Because that's the process. What's underneath? What's all the hustle and bustle? And that's also letting yourself have, if it's fear, it's fear. it's anger, it's anger. If it's tears, it's tears. Allowing what is, is to be present in the moment. Really come back to what's this moment? What's happening here? It's a very complicated answer to give to folks, but I would say that's kind what I do. It's like, what happened? And feel it, even if it sucks. Ugh, I hate it.

Anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also not be alone. Like find other people that you can trust. Like get your people, your safe people, your community to be with because it's really, they're gonna hold you. They're gonna hold you while you're going through this, you know? But it all starts at home first. So I would say presence.

James Ferrigno (1:28:02)
I love that.

Elizabeth (1:28:24)
came anyway. I'm done.

James Ferrigno (1:28:27)
Just be where you are. Be here now and take a breath.

Elizabeth (1:28:29)
Yeah, be here now.

Yeah, easier said than done, but that's it's a process. It's a process. Yeah. Okay. That was fun.

James Ferrigno (1:28:43)
Little

practice. Yeah, that's great. Elizabeth, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all your experiences, your wisdom. ⁓ Very grateful.

Elizabeth (1:28:46)
Thank you. Yes.

Yeah, I'm grateful for you. Thank you so much, James. Yeah, like I said, I'm honored that you reached out and I'm honored to do this. And I'd like to do more, maybe in the future, you or other people, whatever. But as I'm continuing, I want to do more service work with folks to help them in this space between, liminal space between, I don't know where I'm at, I don't know where I'm going, and transition. So anyway, thank you again. I really do appreciate it.

James Ferrigno (1:29:28)
Absolutely.

Elizabeth (1:29:29)
Yeah.