Say It Anyway

James Ferrigno (00:03)
Welcome to Say It Anyway. I'm your host, James Farino, and our guest today is Peter Sandhill, and he works with founders and leaders on doing feelings work. Welcome, Peter.

Peter (00:16)
Hi there, James, good to see you.

James Ferrigno (00:19)
Yeah, good to see you Peter. So we'll start at the beginning. ⁓ You've been doing this work for decades and what first drew you into work of helping people learn about their feelings and transform?

Peter (00:35)
I think the very beginning was probably being in a dysfunctional family and trying to work out my place and how to, ⁓ I think I worked out the sort of family system by the time I was about 12. And I think my natural disposition, even younger, you know, was to be helpful. A friend of mine jokes, calls me Homer from Homer Wells from

Cider House rules and his whole motif was to be helpful. I think that's sort of a orientation that I've had really since I was very little and got into being a high school ESL teacher out of university and really was interested in other cultures as well. So ended up in Japan.

teaching English at an American university, which is partly how I got here to the States. And really enjoyed education and teaching when I was younger. I was very curious about what it was that motivated people to learn. And that was kind of my entry into the world of adult learning and facilitating and teaching and coaching.

was really actually the door of ESL teaching, was a great expression of my early working life, I guess.

James Ferrigno (02:11)
And maybe you can tell us ⁓ what is it that you do with ⁓ individuals, teams, whoever you're working with, leaders, ⁓ what type of feelings work are you doing with them?

Peter (02:26)
Yeah, I think I've been always drawn to as a guy growing up in Australia, there wasn't really much of a language around me for having feelings and I was a very feeling person and strong too, you know, and so some of the framings of masculinity didn't work for me for a long age because I was really

played rugby, I felt strong in my body as a teenager, I felt confident. But I also felt some of that comfort was to be a feeling person. ⁓ so I was that version of me, even as a teenager in that weird environment. I think it just logically made sense to me too. So I think I've developed partly in spite of and partly but...

because of my kind of upbringing to gravitate towards that as it seemed like a better expression than a lot of the expression I saw around me. And I seem to become popular because of it. People have found guys were drawn to me because I was maybe balanced. And I, so I think that started right then and I,

You know, from ESL work, I became very interested in working. I did feelings work in high schools through a program called Challenge Day, which is very well known now. ⁓ I was the initial training director, so I helped to duplicate that work with the founders right then. That was very early on. ⁓ I worked at the Human Awareness Institute as a facilitator for a long time doing feelings work.

here with people who are adults about their relationships and their lives. And I think through that, you know, developed a kind of philosophy of thriving as a, as an adult with kind of a balance of feelings, know, feelings, awareness, and outward expression of joy, you know, I think has been a strong theme. And more recently in the business world, um,

I found working in Silicon Valley with startup founders on their businesses and EQ skills to help them grow their businesses. ⁓ And also in T-groups, which I learned through Stanford Business School and Leaders in Tech, where I work as well. ⁓ And do T-groups, which is a feelings-based EQ program for leaders. And I've been doing that for a while now.

So I think if you look at all those different places in high schools, in the classroom, with adults with intimacy and love and sexuality conversations with leaders and startups, I think the theme has always been that the self matters and a part of the listening to self is listening and understanding the feelings language that flow underneath things that

I've learned has been an asset to be able to have that listening and has certainly, I think makes for a more present person. ⁓ I think I have a bit of meditation and yoga under my belt as well, which helps with that inward inquiry and listening. So for me, it's not just about feelings, it's about all of the inner landscape ⁓ being online, I guess, is a way to say it.

But I certainly have found feelings has been a really helpful, just really helpful language for people to understand, listen to themselves through, being the world through. That's a long answer to your question, wasn't it? ⁓

James Ferrigno (06:25)
love that. Yeah, that's great answer.

We've a lot to go from there.

James Ferrigno (06:34)
So as far as the feelings work goes, ⁓ I take this to mean you're helping people become aware of their emotions. I think this might be particularly helpful for men as they tend to be a little less ⁓ connected to their emotions. Has this been your experience as well?

Peter (06:57)
Yeah, there's a lot in that question. ⁓ It was my direct experience growing up that I wasn't encouraged to be in touch with my feelings and emotions. So that was definitely a data point. I noticed that around me as well. And because I was comfortable a little bit in some ways, I found people were drawn to me to talk about theirs. And so as a guy growing up, I tended to have

James Ferrigno (07:15)
Mm-hmm.

Peter (07:25)
It was sort of weird like anybody seemed comfortable to talk to me because I was in touch with what I felt too. So I think in a way I seemed like a conduit for some people to be comfortable with that. And what I realized is that in my guy world to be tough and strong, it actually took more courage and strength to talk about feelings in a world where that wasn't.

supported than the other. So it sort of seemed logical to me, actually. I'm kind of a logical, rational person as well. So that people often say feelings, people that they don't go together, but I definitely feel very, it seems logical, right? So then, you know, I think I became a leader when I was young and I noticed that being in touch with that, as I said, that current.

was helpful in learning to be a leader. So I think in a way I pushed against the sort of system of what I was taught to be a guy very early and started to define my own way. And I think ⁓ it is, I've had that my whole life now that men have been curious about me because I think I open a door way or give a kind of consent to talk about.

in that language in the way we are right today. It's sort of this. is a normal occurrence for me is people's curiosity. And I think there's a yearning. What I found when I was in my teenage years is I would often go to parties and I would often be sitting in a corner talking to someone for an hour or two hours. And I learned very early that people wanted that and it seemed more interesting to me than, you know,

than other alternatives. So yeah, it's sort of found a way with it very early. And in professional world, you know, I think it's very missing too, is to think of that as a skill to have online, so to speak, is, and specifically, and I learned this through Stanford Business School actually, is they have a feelings word sheet.

that they give to participants who are in the MBA program and they're in different tones and flavors. And part of the work there is actually using feeling words in your language and having it match up with what's occurring inside to get the practice like the reps in to be able to locate feelings. So the first step in the work is actually to locate feelings and develop a vocabulary for them. So when I brought up my son with my partner, Sarah,

James Ferrigno (10:18)
Yeah.

Peter (10:21)
when we brought up Jeremy, we wanted to have a boy who had feelings language from the very beginning, because I saw MBA students struggling with just saying the words, the feeling words themselves, which is partly why I think of feelings and emotions are slightly different. You know, there's the inner experience and there's the using feeling words part. And I think there are different skills actually. So that program teaches people to be aware.

James Ferrigno (10:47)
Yeah.

Peter (10:50)
when I taught at Challenge Day and when I taught at Human Awareness, that work was also about getting comfortable just even to use basic feeling words and using and bringing that language more online. So I think sort of a theme in my life is how do you actually say, I feel uncomfortable right now or I feel I'm feeling no one colleague or and not to allude to a feeling which is what's common now but to actually say the feeling word.

and be in a way more precise about what's occurring. Being in the present is sort of another theme for me is, what's happening now here?

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (11:31)
there's a lot of... ⁓

similarity there to or overlap of being aware of your emotions and being in the present and being able to express that really all tied together. ⁓

Yeah, I found that as myself in my life. know when I grew up, the society was really discouraged feelings and ⁓ even the awareness of them. And I had to have some big events in my life to kind of wake mine up.

That didn't happen until my, really until my 30s. ⁓ it's, when you do it older, it's quite a difficult transition it can be for people. I remember people asking me about my feelings when I was in my 20s and I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't understand. That means nothing to me. And it wasn't that the feelings weren't there, it was just that I was.

Peter (12:37)
Right. ⁓

James Ferrigno (12:46)
unaware disconnected from them. think that's common. And what I saw was women being more connected. I'm not saying completely connected, but more connected than most of the men I knew. And that might have just been, they were having conversations with each other though, probably using some of those feelings words with each other, which I know that with my male friends, we weren't doing that. So, ⁓

Peter (13:15)
And if someone has that language and someone doesn't have that language, no matter what bodies they're in, it's very hard to relate and date and love and connect at deep levels if we're not speaking the same language. And then how do we get that online so we can at least translate? I remember when I lived in Japan, a phrase that I really liked was, when in Rome do as the Romans do, but don't become a Roman.

And so it doesn't mean that you're becoming a woman if you learn how to use feeling languages when guys are socialized to think that feelings aren't cool. know, learning that language is just like learning a language and Goethe, the German philosopher said, when you learn a language, you learn a culture. So whether it's not male culture, you know, certainly learning how to speak that language makes relating to people who do speak that language.

It's a broadening of the inner and outer landscape. I don't even really like to gender fire, but certainly testosterone does things in the male body, it doesn't do the women's bodies. So, ⁓ there's a whole nother conversation there, but ⁓ I find just having the literacy, like the words is really helpful. ⁓ so for example, I'm feeling a lot of.

James Ferrigno (14:29)
Yeah.

Peter (14:40)
right now enjoy to be talking with you and that I feel grateful that you disclosed a little bit about your own upbringing and I enjoyed connecting with ⁓ the 20s and being discouraged or you know for me I was fighting in a way to have the validity of my feelings world you had no language for it you know and

I know also for me, I've led a lot of men's workshops and I've done a lot of men's work and I find that bringing that into men's conversations is really helpful. I actually find that guys, most guys I've met are actually very sensitive. And so if that's, is any truth to that, imagine just how guarded you have to be in a world to not feel when you are sensitive. And how do you bring that online in a way that's a strength?

I think Star Wars, I'm thinking back to Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker. Like when I was a kid, that was my name 77 when that came out. And I was young ⁓ and I loved it. And I remember the validation of, to your feelings with the force. And that was the first time I had heard anyone iconic or in a movie say, yes, listen to that. Listen to that. Yeah.

James Ferrigno (15:47)
Yeah.

Yeah.

huh.

you

Yeah, that was transformative for me as well, just having that concept out, the listening to your feelings and trusting in something larger than yourself. Yeah, that film really opened up possibilities.

Peter (16:30)
I had an experience in my last year of high school ⁓ where a very close friend of mine, or maybe it was the first year out of high school, maybe it was the first year of university. Anyway, a close friend of mine's girlfriend got meningitis and was in hospital for six days. And I remember my parents saying, we don't want you to go to the hospital because she's in intensive care because we want, and I was like, why? And they were like, well, we don't want you to.

James Ferrigno (16:30)
Yeah.

Peter (17:00)
We want to protect you from the feelings that might come from that harsh experience. And I was like, wow, you just don't know me. I'm like curious about what will come up and what that experience will be. And so I went and I hung out with my friend and she died after six days and it was very sad and heart wrenching and bonded us kind of for life in a way going through that deep grief experience. But

my environment around me was not supportive of me having grief. And ⁓ I remember when I lived in Japan, grief was embraced in Japanese culture. And I just remember noticing that huge difference. And I think for me as an adult, grief's one of the experiences that I've found I've had a lot of. And...

have found is not is maybe somewhat acceptable because I think it's such a common human experience to experience loss. ⁓ That and anger for guys, I think of the two ones that are sort of more vaguely okay in guy world now. ⁓ What's your experience of that too? How do you see that?

James Ferrigno (18:20)
you

Peter (18:26)
grief and anger being acceptable-ish for guys. Do you have any other ones or different ones?

James Ferrigno (18:34)
Yeah, what I'm seeing is that anger is definitely the most acceptable for guys, at least in my experience throughout my life. ⁓ Not in all contexts, but in a lot of them. And I've actually seen the society change throughout my life where it's become in certain areas more acceptable. In public, in politics and things, it's become more acceptable to express your anger.

And as far as the grief, yeah, that seems to have changed throughout my lifetime too. That seems to gradually become a little more acceptable, the grief though. Not as acceptable as anger, but it's kind of okay. To a limit, lot of different people and places are different, but.

It's like you're allowed to have so much grief and then X number of days has passed and now it's over, you know, and then the acceptability is time has elapsed and you can't have it anymore.

definitely seen that. Especially like for someone like me who that grief might go on for a really long time. ⁓

unpleasant for people around you.

anymore. They've had enough of it.

Peter (20:03)
My father died

about 12 years ago and I noticed probably it was four or five years afterwards that I would still get little visitations or moments of hearing him talking to me or...

James Ferrigno (20:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Peter (20:19)
regretting something or feeling happy about something from our relationship and different feeling. You grief is so interesting because it's many different feelings can come in a grief response, you know, from a sad memory to a joyful memory to tears that just, you know, or just frozen in memory. I've had so many different experiences with grief. And it surprised me that it was, you know, four or five years.

after he died and still now it's more like drawing on a memory and feeling nice about it or whatever I feel about it in the moment. But no one told me, you know, like you said, it was a shorter period of time and I think that might have been six months that it was acceptable in my world and then, you know, three months. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. My son's going through a heartbreak at the moment having broken up from a

James Ferrigno (21:12)
Yeah.

Peter (21:19)
a long-term relationship and I'm learning a lot about being with him, you know, ending a five-year relationship and ⁓ he's first, you know, and how tender that grief, that kind of grief is and how gut wrenching I was telling him. The only thing I say to him actually is grief sucks when you've broken up with someone and let it be, you know, whatever it is, is what it is.

I just decided to keep out of there and let him have his own experience, but told him that it was okay, you know, and it's normal to feel for a long time. So I'm trying to give a different message to the one that you and I got. Yeah.

James Ferrigno (22:05)
I do that a lot working with people as well, just trying to...

I have students and clients and usually just giving them space, holding space for them and allowing them to have their emotions really is the first step to almost anything. And it seems to be, I've noticed with almost everyone I've worked with, it's very powerful because many times, I don't know their entire histories, but it really seems clear that this is a new experience for them, having the space to feel their

And it makes me think, you know, what...

you know what circumstances are going on around out there that all these people have never been in a space where they're allowed to just feel what they feel without judging it and without judging it themselves so I do a lot of walking them through, holding their hand through

Peter (23:04)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (23:16)
it being okay to cry or being okay to scream or being okay to be angry or being okay to just be at the end of your rope.

can't stand it anymore. And that's okay. And I find that too, like when people are really just clearly at the end and once if you hold their hand and accept it and once they accept it, they're not at the end anymore. Just from accepting that that's where they are.

Peter (23:52)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (23:57)
So yeah, it's...

Peter (23:59)
That's what

I think of is at the end of the line with no more tools to interpret the world or be with the world and that bereft feeling and even at the actual end of wanting to end your life is such a lonely place in some ways and a place where I think so many people go and myself included a couple of times in my life, know, like questioning why.

Why am I here? What's the point of it all? Or there is no point to it all, guess is really the, is that space. And I love hearing that you, that's quite an ability to be able to be with someone when they're in that place. And the thing I relate to you and have in common is just what, know, actually I'd like to ask you like, what is that space that is created? What is that? ⁓

A friend of mine changed his name to Basin because he noticed that he kept creating that space and it's a special gift I think to be able to really understand holding space and reading a room so that people can be themselves. I agree that my experience when I'm in those rooms and it's done well or I help make it happen that it feels really special.

James Ferrigno (25:04)
Yeah.

Ugh.

Peter (25:30)
the space to be myself no matter where I am or how I feel even if it's at the end of something or feeling like I'm at the end. How do you think of it? Like what what what do you do to make that space?

James Ferrigno (25:44)
So

I think I probably obviously but I have some kind of propensity for it already. You I was clearly born with something. ⁓ But I did have to learn how to connect with people. First I had to learn about my own emotions. Then I had to learn that I was picking up on other people's and be aware of what was going on there.

And then usually I make eye contact with the person and connect with them, although it's not absolutely necessary. And I create a bubble.

⁓ or rather I set up the conditions so the bubble creates itself and it's through real compassion and real presence. If I'm grounded and present and opening my heart chakra and looking the person in the eyes and really having a lot of compassion and connecting with them and being

You know, there's a lot of things going on there. I'm being completely accepting of anything that happens. I'm being completely accepting of them. I'm surrounding them with love. I'm kind of thinking of myself as I'm here, I'm present, I'm grounded, I'm on earth, so it's okay. And I'm making that whole bubble okay. And they're in it, so they're okay.

And it may take a little while for them to settle down if they're really having a crisis, ⁓ but they will.

and they'll become connected and they'll connect to me and it's as if I'm temporarily.

grounding them and loving them in lieu of them grounding and loving themselves, I guess.

and I found it to be... I've had people attack me during it but I never stopped doing it. ⁓

I found it to be very powerful and to be, at least in my experience so far, it's always been successful.

Peter (28:11)
In that place, even if irrespective of the reaction happening with another person or people, when you, whatever comes at you, you hold, there's a place you are referencing that I'm curious about. I think of that as a kind of core through my center. It's that place I think that I reference when I say I feel centered. You know, when that's grounded.

deeply and I'm connected to my core, kind of doesn't matter what comes at me. And the space that sort of cocoon you referenced around you.

I really relate to that as well. ⁓ I like that you use bubble. I think of the whole thing as a coherent field is being in touch with my inner me and my outer me and to all the things that I need to be connected with to be able to hold that kind of space and kind of calmly holding the center. I mean, it's actually

blissfully calm in that. I don't even know if I have a storm is even accurate. It feels like the eye of the eye of the storm is really serene. And when I can remember that and understand that the edge of the cocoon, I, yeah, anyway, I'm just relating to the sort of energetics of it, I guess, in creating that coherent field and.

think in nervous system work, when there's a coherent field, another nervous system looks for coherence and rearranges itself around that coherence.

James Ferrigno (30:13)
Absolutely. Yeah, I think I find it to be...

I think of it as a reality, like there's a reality tunnel, like each person is in their own little universe. And if I can bring someone into mine...

All is well.

And that's how I do it. I am doing a few other energetic things. I have a masters from Intuition Medicine from the Academy of Intuitive Medicine. So I use a few of those techniques to kind of ramp it up. But it's gotten so now I can do it pretty quickly without having to consciously run particular energies. I'll just do a couple little things and that'll...

Peter (31:02)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (31:07)
basically ground.

So in

Peter (31:12)
I think they call it

unconscious competence when you do it without thinking. It's just a natural part of your mojo.

James Ferrigno (31:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, and I did start to, the Human Awareness Institute is where I started to learn this. It's where I started to learn.

There lot of other, there was the academy and other workshops as well that really brought me to it.

That's where I began.

Peter (31:42)
I had a lot of learning with a woman called Linda Cezera in Berkeley. She has an energy class school and I found her work really, really powerful. And she, you know, there's a meditation that I do actually many times a day that she taught me, which includes grounding, finding your center, understanding the edge of you, you know, the energetic edge of you, clearing what's...

James Ferrigno (31:49)
Mm-hmm.

Peter (32:11)
inside out so there's only you in there and also understanding how to work with your chakras and there's a whole bigger picture framework which she also teaches but I found just that practice you know when we were talking earlier about being calm I found that that's been a nervous system calming meditation for me and getting me tuned in to that what's going on where I am and what's going on around

what's going on in here. And I also did some Vipassana meditation. I've done a bunch of that. And I found that kind of inner awareness, sensation awareness, to be very helpful in that kind of, I think, calming as well as awareness. And so for me, when it sort of added to the feelings process to be able to have sensation awareness, but then also to have developed a literacy for feeling words. And

That's sort part of what I was meaning about the sort of inner work and the outer work. And I'm noticing talking to you today that you a lot done, you sort of referencing a lot of inner work that you've done to be able to create that outer space for people to step into if they want.

James Ferrigno (33:34)
Yeah, I remember, I remember at Human Awareness Institute seeing you at workshops and I wasn't really aware of what you were doing, but I could see that something was happening. I could see that there was an energetic source and I would notice that you would be aware and notice what was going on with someone when your back was to them and they were kind of far away.

Peter (34:03)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (34:04)
always curious about that. ⁓

one of my motivations to learn that type of...

Peter (34:18)
think probably the theme inside of that awareness that has been one of my hardest things to work on is not making the listening about me.

is getting my own agenda, ego.

thinking brain that is also really a great aid for me is having that less online and more listening that isn't, I think it's just heart, it's not just feelings listening, it's part of it, but it's, ⁓ Linda, my friend and teacher that I mentioned earlier, she talks about it as the body being an instrument and bringing your instrument online more and more by different practices.

And then through that instrument, lots of different things come online to listen. So I'm speaking very broadly now, but write down the physical sensations that you're perceiving on your skin right now or a sensation in the belly or some sensing, as you just mentioned, what's behind without hyper attention, but more like how to bring in attention, I guess, is a way to we're getting quite esoteric, I guess, aren't we? This is kind of of fun.

James Ferrigno (35:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Peter (35:38)
But it's interesting what, how we bring our experiences along and integrate them to be who we are, you know, and, and I think back to the sort of topic where we started, which is creating space, you know, I think I actually also think of like you, what's the physical space. It's interesting that you mentioned a bubble. ⁓ I, I use bubbles sometimes to

And I also use kind of electromagnetic feeling of making space is another sort of form that I use. But I often think of that, like, what is the space? You right now we've got your room and my room and then whatever's between us. But I often think of, you know, the physical space that people are in and also comfort in their bodies. You know, like what makes people comfortable?

when they're listening to this now or what makes people comfortable in a physical space. To me, that's also a factor in how do people best take information in and learn ⁓ what people need for that. And I think the needs for that are really different. And a part of holding space is having some...

sensitivity in the creating of the space or openness maybe to that level as well, like people's physics.

And you were alluding also to emotional comfort, like where someone's at the end of their line or, yeah. I think it's quite a, it just takes a lot of practice. People often say, how do you do that? And it sounds like we both stumbled into it or had templates that we saw. You said that human awareness was one for you. And I think it was for me too, when I first went, I could see something happening in what they, what's called at high, the room of love.

And I think of that in space creating, whether I did it in high schools or just how do you create a sense in a space that people relate to in their terms in the space. In challenge days, we did the work in gyms, school gyms. So we created that in that environment. Part of it was a big circle of chairs. Every participant had a chair and there were speakers. And so there was kind of a definition of the space by virtue of.

and all of the work was done inside the circle while there was a circle. So that was another way that I saw a space being created. Yeah, it's very interesting. I think Native American folk, it's a part of a lot of cultures to create space.

you

James Ferrigno (38:24)
Yeah, those, the image, the circle has been very used and very powerful throughout all of human history. And it's...

Peter (38:33)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (38:36)
It's its magic and witchcraft and its science and its ⁓ energetic and...

engineering.

Peter (38:51)
Stonehenge is one that they're still trying to understand fully, for example.

James Ferrigno (38:55)
Yeah.

Peter (38:57)
I think there's also a connection here to something we started on was about men and young men. And I think that ⁓ when I think of healing circles or ⁓ Native American circles or Aboriginal Australian circles or a group in a circle, ⁓ the use of that as a gathering sense, know, knifes of the round table.

you know, gathering as equals in a circle, I think, is one way to think of it. And I think a lot of young men aren't getting enough exposure to kind of groups where it's healthy and healing. And my son certainly has had a lot of experience that I didn't have with interacting online with games and gaming. A lot of fun and a very social outlet for him. You know, he talks to people all the time.

grabbed these earphones and said hello to some friends that I know. ⁓ But when I lived in Japan, I really noticed the amount of small and large rituals they have as part of the culture there. And that's when it really hit me that it was not common in my culture growing up in Australia to have a lot of rituals. Certainly if there were feelings involved protecting me from them. So I think of...

you know, what's there for young guys and what kind of group do you join or what kind of team do you want to be on? And is, you know, are we providing, is it a society, are we providing that for young men to, and I, you know, some of the things we've talked about already is having people guide us with feelings or to be able to talk about things that are difficult and uncomfortable and not just be in a sort of testosterone response, you know.

So when I think of our conversation about holding space, that's one of the things I think of. And I know when I was doing challenge day work, I really felt good about that kind of, but it was only a day or two here and there for young people.

I think it's great and I just wish there was more stuff like that for young men. Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? This sort of like where we are in our world right now.

James Ferrigno (41:21)
Yeah.

Peter (41:28)
especially with so much draw to technology and you know, which is real. ⁓ Also how to have the kind of relating that makes us human with humans. Anyway, I guess I'm broadening a bit here from just space holding to how do you think about that? How do you think about men and young men and from that sort of point of view about, you know, spaces that have held you and

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (42:00)
But...

There was a real lack of that. ⁓ I remember as a teenager just struggling to create that myself and create it with my friends as I saw other people doing as well. And even if you watch movies or talk to other people, it seems to be pretty common, at least in the Western European cultures. ⁓

And it was really hit or miss and haphazard and, you know.

did not, I really was not provided with...

what I needed and I really had to do a lot to try and start to find that and I guess I started with books you know and it was like and then you know I found Carlos Castaneda and Robert Anton Wilson and Timothy Leary and all this stuff right but that's really was my only gateway into any kind of guidance.

Peter (42:52)
you

Hmm.

James Ferrigno (43:10)
The guidance, what little there was, coming from the ⁓ adults and institutions and the society was insufficient at best, destructive at worst. And it ended up taking me decades to step by step, thing by thing, kind of create my own.

initiation process that took decades to happen, exploring the grail myth and endless things. ⁓ And traditionally, most indigenous societies had a fairly extensive initiation process for young people. ⁓ They varied greatly, but there was something, and quite often a lot, of teaching ⁓ young people

what the world is, what your society is, how to interact, how to interact with in relationships, with sexuality, with your body, your emotions, your own energy. The list is very long of all the things. And for some reason, I don't know if in Europe, in the Middle Ages, or something that really started to deteriorate and...

It's kind of, there are people working in this field trying to remedy this, but ⁓ it really has deteriorated almost until this day. seems to be, there's fewer things like that now in the mainstream culture than there were when I was a kid. And, at least from my perspective. So, I...

I have worked with men, young men, to try to alleviate some of that, to be able to provide them with just some of the information. And that's part of the idea for this podcast. there's some of the things take a lot of work, take, you know.

need to learn over long periods of time like self-love and connecting to yourself and your emotions. But some of the things are fairly simple and can be told to someone in an hour. And we weren't even getting those in the mainstream culture. really like the challenge day, that's a good example of something new that's starting to fill that space somewhat.

Peter (45:44)
Yeah. ⁓

James Ferrigno (46:00)
I feel, my intuition tells me that there will be more of that and that things are going to...

So ⁓ I don't know for certain, but.

but I would hope that that's the case. I see... and... excuse me. ⁓ I have noticed that men, people who viewed as men by the society, ⁓ seem to...

⁓ I'm gonna pause here.

James Ferrigno (46:49)
And as far as I've seen in the culture, ⁓ and this is actually all over the world, I've had clients in Africa, in Iran, that have the same issues, the exact same issues that people have in the Bay Area. is that men have very little support and education, even less than women do, I because women talk to each other.

And there also I noticed there are some...

women's magazines there's some it may not be the best information in the world is certainly not perfect but there's some information provided to them on relationships and dating and how to do this and that all the information isn't great but for men traditionally there's just a blank space you know it's really nothing so I think providing some of that is

be very beneficial for them. And I said this before, but ⁓ one of the things, pieces of information I'd like to get out to women is that when they find that men aren't emotionally available, know, won't connect with them, ⁓ the women that I've talked to...

have become upset with their partner or the man because he won't do it and they have the idea that he's refusing to do it or he's angry or having some kind of other issue or that it's, you know, distraction or alcohol or something else when really it's that he simply doesn't possess the ability.

He just simply doesn't know how. He might be able to accidentally do it once in a while. know, it'll just fall into it. He doesn't know how to make it happen. He doesn't know how to really...

Peter (48:50)
And you think about girls

culture, girls are talking from a young age about their feelings. Guys are not doing that. So just in terms of like reps, training, neural pathways, there are less there, I think is what you're saying. Just fundamentally, there's less practice. There's less knowing the language like I was talking about earlier, actual feeling words. There's less being able to locate it in your body or your experience or your energy field. There's less role models.

James Ferrigno (48:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Peter (49:19)
There's less magazines and information. You know, and I think a lot of men are attracted to certain parts of in social media to people who either are humorous, who talk about it, you know, think humor and comedy is one outlet. And I think there's also a lot of other outlets. I know there's a huge rise in the States in Christianity in that domain of young men all of a sudden being attracted, numbers going up.

So I think men are looking, young men, men are looking for it and they're trying to find the places where there is the perception of support and can we speak the same language? But it's not always feeling language. It's not always connecting language. It's not always self-aware language. ⁓ so you're saying there's just a fundamental ability and skill missing. And I would also contend to whatever degree there is.

James Ferrigno (50:05)
Mm-hmm.

Peter (50:15)
an inkling of feeling connection in a guy, then back to how sensitive a lot of guys actually are, then it's a pretty sacred place to give access to, and it's not a right. And so helping a guy, whether it's a male or a female or something else, be comfortable to go here, just opening that up.

is such a tender experience as well as the skill to talk about it. yeah, so spaces that we provide, I think are really crucial for that. that finding a coherent, you know, a coherent energy source, you know, like we talked about earlier is really crucial. One of the things that I've found also is I've done a bunch of, had a bunch of

connections with an organization in Arizona called the Deer Tribe, which its work is based in a lot of Navajo ⁓ work, I guess. And they have a ritual for young men and young women they call the first seed ceremony. when literally the body starts to produce eggs is the transition point in that. And they, I've done... ⁓

know, ceremonies that included sweat lodges and share circle groups and stuff with a young man who wants that, you know, it usually has to be consented to, of course. And I've also found something that you touched on is mentorship is being that coherent view through life and that someone can come and talk to or ask questions to. And I've certainly practiced that a lot.

the young man now who's 20 that I've been did that ceremony with when he was 14 with his dad and grandfather and other folks and have just stayed in contact with and have been a source to just bounce ideas off or to talk about relationships and you know how to get in one or stay in one or you know all of that stuff that like we said we weren't given access to and I've just found

creating spaces with other dads for teenagers when my son was a teenager, know, healthy places to talk about things. ⁓ Yeah, so the mentorship, I just wanted to add that in as another flavor of creating spaces for men.

Yeah, in Australia, in the state where I'm from, they have a project, I think it's called Men's Shed, and it's a non-religious, socially neutral, politically neutral organization for creating. And in Australia, having a shed out the back or a little building for yourself where your tools are or something, I think is where it comes from. But the idea is a place where men will gather and talk, not just about.

their tools and their work projects. And that's a version, sort of a social movement that's been gaining traction over there that I've been really impressed with.

James Ferrigno (53:33)
Yeah.

Peter (53:46)
And it's interesting that in our conversation, one of our themes has gotten to, you know, places for men and the lack of them in our experiences.

Yeah, I often wonder about that for my son. He's about to go to the UK and what will he find that is supportive for him? ⁓

I worry, I worry about him and this topic and having the right influences around, you know, that is one of the things that I think about as a dad.

Even though I feel I'm probably very well resourced and with the richness of our conversation and the work we've each done to find our way to create these spaces. And yet here I am, I still worry on the side of being a dad too, in a very normal parent way, who cares about their kid.

James Ferrigno (54:55)
Yeah, there's no escaping the emotions. You don't learn to not have them.

Peter (55:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (55:06)
They're gonna.

always there.

In. ⁓

Peter (55:18)
Interestingly,

I was just thinking about being a son when you were saying that and I went to my dad when I was 24.

⁓ and I told him that I didn't like the way he'd been my dad. He didn't mentor me in the way his, his idea was being a good role model was the way to be a man. But not talk about it. And I told him I didn't want that. he, ⁓ stopped and listened and he cried actually with me and

James Ferrigno (55:57)
Huh?

Peter (55:59)
That was actually a turning point for us in becoming, I'd probably say creating a new relationship, a different relationship than the one we'd had, and trying to find each other as adults. And ⁓ I think that's what I'm going through with my son without the animosity and the whatever I brought to him, but watching him become himself as a man.

and keeping out of it. You know, was alluding to the heartbreak earlier. When I think of it, I think I claimed that with my father because I didn't have it. You know, I was so infuriated that it wasn't around me and I kind of needed it actually. I needed to have a better kind of communicating with my father and bless him. He jumped in, he heard the call and

He was willing to be inexperienced and fumbling in his expression of feelings when he was willing to begin that journey with me when I was 24 and he would have been.

50, I don't know, 50 something.

Did you ever have any moment with your father or where anything relate to that?

James Ferrigno (57:28)
Yeah, that's pretty extraordinary because that's not always been my experience. ⁓ Nothing like that. think it's just been a slow process of being able to talk about more things and go into them. ⁓ He's from the...

3 boomer generation so just barely so it's just a different world a different worldview ⁓

Peter (58:07)
you

James Ferrigno (58:10)
And ⁓ so some of the things are a bit out of reach. But I think I've pretty well. actually, from a fairly young age, kind of worked on my whole nuclear family.

My family wasn't very connected, were no conversations, there was no real I love you's, no hugging, no, you know. And, but I did, it's interesting, I instituted it in my family fairly early on, my early 20s, I I figured, so I instituted hugging people when I saw them and saying I love you.

I noticed all my brothers and father are still a bit uncomfortable with it. My mother did eventually get used to it and then was very comfortable with it. Things like that. ⁓ But I also find it interesting this happens a lot as the people will, if you institute something new, after ⁓ not too long a time, they forget, they feel they've always done it.

Peter (59:37)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (59:40)
They don't remember a time when

Peter (59:43)
That same in my family. My family wasn't a hugging family like that. And I didn't know when it came in. ⁓ Maybe my mid to late twenties is when I started to really take it on. So I'm relating to you about being like a source of change, but I don't think, I think it helped make people a little closer. And I don't think people remember a time with you. I think even societally, it's more common that men hug

James Ferrigno (1:00:07)
Yeah.

Peter (1:00:12)
publicly. I remember in the late 90s, Bill Clinton and Al Gore hugging on stage. And I remember us all going, whoa, there it is, public, public leaders, male leaders hugging one another. You what will this do? And I think I noticed from then on. And there's also sort of like the urban grab each other and sort of pull each other in here kind of hug that I see very common.

James Ferrigno (1:00:40)
half hug thing.

Yeah.

Peter (1:00:41)
a half-hug with

an arm wrestle hold or something. But even that is ⁓ more than when I was young. ⁓

James Ferrigno (1:00:51)
Yeah, even that's progress. was... Yeah, it was fairly uncommon.

We did in my friend group, we did. ⁓ But I think we were fairly unusual.

people.

Peter (1:01:15)
You had a real difference between your family and your friend group, it sounds like.

James Ferrigno (1:01:23)
Yes. And the friend group was much more.

supportive.

understanding.

even though they had no experience and had no idea what was going on.

Peter (1:01:40)
I think that's what got...

Yeah, right. I think that's probably

what got me through my high school years was close friends and finding a way to be different, even in little pockets, little conversations here and there.

James Ferrigno (1:02:02)
We invented our own language and everything like young people still do.

Peter (1:02:06)
Yeah.

Something that you said, ⁓ just that I was connecting with is my grandfather.

my mother's father. When my mom was turning 80 some years ago, I went back to Australia and I asked her to bring me photo albums from her life so I could scan them at that stage and make a slideshow for her 80th. Which I did, I did a public slideshow with all of her people of her life.

And one of the photos I found was a black and white photo, quite large, of two men on a battlefield with army clothing on. And there was just mud and just these two guys crossing a little wooden bridge over where the water would run. I said to her, is that grandpa? And she said, yeah, it was from a battlefield in France to in World War I.

And I just said to her, I don't know. I said, I really don't know what it's like for a man to come home from a war and having seen death and even killed people themselves and really be normal again, like the way we think of not having that experience. And I wonder about the immigration for men back into the world with

having had experienced sort of that kind of trauma, so to speak. And she cried and talked about how her father was violent and moody, which were, you know, sort of what we might think of as PTSD behaviors back to men not having support. And he had none in his generation, like none. And I think he died with

James Ferrigno (1:04:16)
Yeah.

Peter (1:04:19)
the inner landscape being affected and not having an outlet to talk about it. And I think my mother dealt with that anger and how she communicated with anger to us sometimes. And I think for me, in that sort of generational healing process, I think one of my promises was to not ever hit my kid, which I have succeeded in. ⁓

But I was just thinking of support for men and thinking of the conversation we've had today about the times when we had support like a friend group or we didn't have support in institutions around us and how you and I both parallel in different parts of the world and found a way to create spaces for people to be themselves and.

You know, and there's sort of some of the lineage through my family arc of how that's impacted. And I think my son doesn't even have any idea. You know, back to that theme you were also mentioning, like his in his own new bright new world possibilities without the wounding that I, you know, that my mother and I absorbed from my grandfather, for example.

war. And that's another thing I just wonder a lot about is, you know, many friends who are veterans, you know, and just the lack of the middling support for veterans, you know. And anyway, just sort of while we're talking about spaces and just thought there was a theme through the middle of that in the sort of family generational healing.

aspect of being different kind of men that you and I both clearly are trying to be.

James Ferrigno (1:06:16)
team.

Yeah, that's really good. There's a lot there.

What I've seen with the men coming back from war, yeah, that was a good term, middling support, because that's what I see going on now for veterans, kind of at best. ⁓ But as far as, this is just my experience, all the stories I've heard of World War I, World War II, Korea, people, men coming back from war.

I have not yet heard a story about someone who didn't have PTSD. And if you stop and think about it for a moment, you'd have to be, well, self-integrated and be able to feel your emotions and process them in order to not. So you'd have to be a pretty rare person to not have PTSD from war. So.

Peter (1:07:10)
Yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:07:20)
It's interesting because I'm not sure that the...

broader culture really sees that. That it's virtually all the veterans.

Peter (1:07:35)
Yeah, yeah, it's still seen as a an anomaly or ⁓ an outlier experience. And part of that is the lack of inquiry into the texture of PTSD and different kinds of trauma affecting people differently and different modalities needed to support different people and how somewhat each person is different in the same situation.

James Ferrigno (1:07:42)
Okay.

Absolutely.

Peter (1:08:06)
Yeah, gosh, there's so much in this topic, isn't there?

James Ferrigno (1:08:09)
Yeah, yeah,

I was just thinking about the other day I was having a conversation with someone about that

We all react differently and we can all be traumatized by different things. And if someone is really sensitive, they can be traumatized by something that another person wouldn't even notice.

So it's not a one size fits all situation, there's really nothing in

that's so treating and helping to support people.

I mean if someone's really sensitive they're going to get traumatized as soon as they get to a war, you know, so I'm not sure the outlook for that is not great.

Yeah, I know. had some... No, go ahead.

Peter (1:09:02)
If you

think of Boot Camp, one of the things that Boot Camp does is it prepares the body. It's kind of a physical body preparation. And the mental preparation, I think, is giving away your power to a greater authority that is the military and agreeing to feel it fall in with the system of

James Ferrigno (1:09:16)
you

Peter (1:09:30)
that particular version of authority and system and you're held by that system. But there isn't apart from a certain kind of mental truing, very simple truing to authority and letting go. There isn't really a training of ⁓ self skills to deal with all of that change.

So that you could argue that it starts there. And some people would say, that's just, that made me the person that I am. And I think for some folks that's true. But then seeing someone die. I remember when I was in high school, I saw, we were studying World War I and our teacher at the time, we were studying world history, said that in World War I, the first wave of people,

that became soldiers were very unsuccessful using bayonets because they had practiced on sandbags. And then when they, what they worked out is to put a uniform of the enemy over the sandbags and create a mental connection of this is the enemy. And then people were better, more effective in battle at killing people because they at least had a reference to the uniform.

as being the enemy and I'm just sort of thinking of what we're talking about, like the psychology of training someone for the military and then how do you undo that on the way back? Like someone's been in a war, they've had the experience, they've killed someone or they've helped people who've been killed or they've done whatever part they've done. Yeah, I just don't really believe we've got the right, this is probably another podcast to chat about.

James Ferrigno (1:11:24)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack here. ⁓

Peter (1:11:25)
Hahaha

Yeah,

yeah. I think one of our themes is the lack of support for men, for young men, for guys in relationships, for guys when their hearts open, for a guy who's grieving, finding our way that's our way. I don't know, I'm just sort of wrapping up in a way with just the themes we've discussed and yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:11:52)
Yeah.

Peter (1:11:57)
I didn't know we were going to have this particular conversation because we didn't know where we were going to go but I've really enjoyed.

exploring with you James today.

James Ferrigno (1:12:11)
Yeah, so if I didn't know where it was going to go and it's a...

satisfied with how.

been led.

So as we wrap it up, do you have any, just one piece of, I don't know, just something to say that maybe people could do, start doing right now, something practical to...

Maybe heal some of these things somewhere to start if they're stuck. ⁓

Peter (1:12:53)
Yeah,

well I think one of the themes that we've had is the spaces to do that. So how do you find a space, whether it's a friend, you know, someone who you trust to be able to talk about. But I think some of the theme here has been talking about your inner world.

James Ferrigno (1:13:01)
Yeah.

Peter (1:13:15)
in a space where you can be held to be yourself, that sort of coherent field.

I think one of the things brought back to Challenge Day is that they taught in high schools that Challenge Day teachers is it's important to speak up about what's occurring inside and it's important to be able to identify those who can and can't around you hear that and practice going to some of the ones that can. I don't know, just that first step or continuing that if people are doing that I think is...

In the way we've talked today, know, disclosed a lot of our histories and inner worlds and that makes me feel closer to you, you know, and I think that's part of how it works.

Yeah.

James Ferrigno (1:14:15)
feel free to share with others.

what your real experience is, your real feelings.

Peter (1:14:28)
It's been an honor hanging out with you this way. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

James Ferrigno (1:14:33)
Yeah,

thank you, Peter. Yeah, it's been a great conversation.