Say It Anyway

You're still searching for that breakthrough that always feels just out of reach.What is your true life path and how do you finally find it?Welcome to Say It Anyway, the podcast where we help you unlock the breakthrough you've been waiting for so your true life path can finally come to life.Each week, we share powerful, practical tools you can use right now to start transforming your life.You'll hear raw, honest conversations with people from all walks of life, people who found their way forward and are here to share mindsets, strategies, and wisdom that helped them get there.I'm James Ferriño.I've helped people reconnect with their power for years.I'll guide you beyond surface-level solutions into a deeper way of seeing the world, one rooted in connection, courage, and open-hearted dedication.This is your space to think differently, live boldly, and finally do the thing you were meant to do.Let's get started.Hello, this is James Ferriño, and this is Say It Anyway: Owning Your Power, The Path to Who You Really Are.And my guest today is Greg Sutera or Su-tera, and, uh, he's a musician, singer, songwriter, and, uhWelcome, Greg.Thank you, James.Thanks for having me, and it is an honor to be, uh, one of the first of this series that you're building.I'm very excited tothat you came here.I'm excited to do the interview.Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to have you here.This is, I think, going to be a great interview.So yeah, so how long have we known each other?About 10 years now, right?10 years.Almost, it'll beAugust, it will be 10 years.Full decade.Okay, August?Yeah.Wow.Lot's happened in those years, huh?sure has.Yeah.Been a lot of transformation, huh?Oh, yeah.We've been roommates, we've been friends, we've been, uh, partners in going through life together and, and figuring out who we are, um, so this is pretty apropos to have this conversation, I feel like.Yeah, I think so.And so let's start with the, with the music career.We can get into personal stuff too, really wherever we want to go- Yeah.whatever you want to do.But, uh, maybe start with like where your, your youthWhere did music really first di- make an impact on you?Yeah, um, I think about this a lot actually.I love going back and thinking, "When did this first hit me?"And I feel like it got, it got me really, really young.Um, the first music that I could remember vividly was Michael Jackson, Beat It, like specifically the song Beat It.Um, which when I listen to it now, it's no surprise.The rhythm, the I, I remember hearing that on cassette tape in my parents' car when I was probably two, and it made an impact on me.And then, um, I wentused to go grocery shopping with my mom when I was a kid and, you know, that was like the late '80s, so you had like, uh, Genesis and Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel and she listened to Kenny Loggins.Just a lot of like kind of singer/songwriters, really beautiful melodies, um, men singing with sort of, uh, like a tenor voice, kind of like a higher voice.It was- Hmm.a specific style that I was, like, uh, introduced to very young, and it was just all very mellifluous and, and I really enjoyed it.And then I started being deeply moved by music.Physically, it would make me dance.I started going to, like, family functions that would have DJs or bands, and I would find myself on the dance floor at a very, very young age.And, uh, of course, in those days, I wasn't intellectually aware of w- of anything that I was doing.The music had me.So you were just this little kid at weddings or events, and- Yeah.dancing around on the dance floor?Yeah.And- Okay.And if anybody's seen me now, uh, nothing has changed.Same situation.A little bit taller.Just a little bit, but barely.Yeah.So do you remember the first time that music, uh, made you feel powerful, made you feel strong?That's f- it's, that's interesting.Um, there's, uh, there's a lot of different ways that I could think about that.Um, I think just music in general always made me feel, uh, good, and then powerful, I probably didn't even know what that even was until I needed to start to feel powerful in my life maybe.Like as a kid, I don't remember ever needing to feel powerful until I got to be- Hmm.13, 14, in that area, teenager, testosterone, puberty, bullies, school teachers, girls, and lot going on at that time.Yeah, andthen I'm like, "Okay, I need to get through this."So I used to go- I started lifting weights at a very young age and I used to listen to like pretty aggressive music.You know, started listening to Metallica, listened to Linkin Park, Korn, umelse was I listening to back then?Um, Incubus.A lot of the music I was listening to was hard and aggressive and it would make me feel powerful and strong.And- Yeah.maybe not necessarily at timesum, perhaps at times, that was not a clean feeling of power.Hmm.Perhaps it was like sort of destructive, but you know-As a teenager, I had to go from being a boy to the process of becoming a man, so you're gonna go through a little bit of aggression and rage and anger and finally feeling like I'm, uh, I am becoming somebody, you know?Mm-hmm.So the music that I was listening to at that time, uh, was in line with how I was feeling inside and, and so it was, it was a complement for it.Yeah, I know.That's, that's a time when, especially for young men, there, a lot of anger can come up, a lot ofYou've got a lot of emotions you maybe don't understand- Right.and trying to express them.I know for me, it was Oingo Boingo and- Hmm.some punk-type music, and it was really an outlet- Mm-hmm.you know, to be able to go to those shows and just let all that energy out.There's a lot of energy, right?Yeah.That's, that's cool.See, I never went to shows.I didn't go to a concert until I was probably, like, 17 maybe?Mm-hmm.Um, all of that aggression was coming out in the gym, going to the gym- Ah, okay.like, lifting weights and having the headphones and the Discman going.Hmm.Or the Walkman.And, uh, that's how I was getting the energy out.If I knew about punk shows or, like, rock shows where there's like, you know, 50, 70 people in a little club, that probably would've been great.never entered my reality- Hmm.for whatever reason.Okay.Strangely.Yeah, that is interesting.Yeah.Yeah, yeah.It was, uh, for me, it was the rock shows, of course, but, uh, you know, growing up in Southern California, but- Hmm.it started out with just, you know, blasting the music out of your car- Yeah.just jumping around, dancing, you know, yourself, getting the energy out, and thenwith your friends, and then being able to share it with a whole group of people at a show, yeah.Wow.Yeah, I don't even think I was aware of anything other than what the radio, the mainstream radio that I was- Hmm.listening to.I didn't, I don't, I really don't think that I even was aware that there was anybody else doing music except for what the radio was giving me.Okay.Very, very, very, uh, um, kind of like a very naive, young person.Yeah.I d- I didn't really know what was going on in the world.Yeah.Yeah, well, we all are at the time, most of us anyway.Yeah.Um, yeah, so, um, you're also a songwriter, and you've written some great songs- SomeRight?Yeah, some days, right?Some days I am, yep.Some days a writer, some days a performer, some days- Yeah, that's true.I guess ultimately, sometimes, uh, or I guess ultimately, that is what I am, but it, it seems to express itself, um, i- in various ways.Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.Oh, no.That's fine.So has any song you've written ever really helped you grow?Did a song ever take on a life of its own and maybe help teach you something?Every single song that I've come up with has, and it starts withAnd by the way, most of the songs that I've come up with don't ever, still haven't made it out.Like, they're still in my hard drive.Hmm.So the ones that have made it out, um, they all started with something that I was playing alone, and I felt an emotion, and then I would try to match the emotion with the sound of the chords, or I would find a sound on the chords, on the guitar, or like a rhythm, and then find the emotion inside of me that needs to be expressed.So every single thing that I have written has helped me through something because it's- Hmm.uh, it's coming from either the p- place in me that's, that's in pain, uh, or a place in me that's in j- joy and celebration.And every single thing that I write, I don't know how to write any other way but what, that I'm feeling something and I need it to get out, and it just so happens that the sound of chords on a guitar, chords on a piano, and certain bass lines really draw out the emotion.So, um, I go through an emotional experience any time I write something.Um, sometimes I cry, sometimes I'm laughing, sometimes it makes me angry.Um, by the time it gets distilled down enough where I could take it to a stage, whether it's an open mic or, or whatever, uh, I have gone through an entire emotional state with it, where it, it's a journey, and I learned something about myself going through it.And now, I'm able to stand and perform it, whereas, like, at first, it's like it's too personal, it's too emotional.I ca- I could barely get through it.So it sounds-for you just the creation of any music, of any of your songs is not only a therapeutic, but a, a growth process, a process of your own becoming yourself?It's, um, it's kind of like a mirror.I can hold up all of these mirrors to see different parts of, like, my head or my back.Mm-hmm.The music lets me see my emotions, and feel them, and taste them, and play with them, and get them out, and get them moving around.Um- Hmm.and it'sJust a sidebar, like, it shocks me to think, "What was I doing before?They were just in me?"Yeah.And so that's why like, I was just going through life and distracting myself with as much other stuff as I could possibly be doing so that I didn't have to deal with myself.And obviously, you know, at some point, that, that straw broke the camel's back.Um, but yeah, it, it, it's, it's teaching meI know this isn't the direct answer to this question, but it's- Hmm.it's teaching me about myself because, again, it's pulling out and showing me parts of myself that would otherwise be unexpressed, unseen, unknown, and probably doing destruction inside of me without even realizing it.And then when I'm done expressing myself on a song, I feel good.Like, I can't help but notice that I feel better.I feel lighter.I am not asI don't walk aroundI'm not angry.I'm notI'm less grumpy.Uh, something has been exercised.So rather than distract yourself when you have strong emotions, as most people in our society, uh, myself included- As we've been trained to do.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.As we've all been taught to distract ourselves- Yeah.from our emotions, to bury them, to not feel them.And you've found a way to be creative and not just a kind of creativity that you don't understand, but a creativity where you're consciously aware of the process that's happening- Right.that you're able to deal with your emotions and to channel that energy into the creative process ofIs that correct?That's 100%.Yeah.And then I think the final piece of it is bringing it to an audience- Hmm.and having other people hear it, because I could sit here and play all the time, and for me, and it's great, and I get a lot out of that.But once I'm in front of other people pushing out that energy, then it, it completes itself.It completes the circuit.It's going out.Other people are feeling it, hearing it, seeing it f- tasting it, having their own experience with it, and then it's coming back to me, and then I'm putting it through again, and then it's going back out.And then it's this incredible thing that hopefully is not only healing me but maybe healing somebody that's listening.Maybe.Um- We hope.So, um, yeah, I, it's, uh, it's a, it's, it's kind of like the, the way that I know how to be now.I don't know what I would do- Yeah.without it actually.It's your path, your- It is the path.Now it's- Yeah.It is, yeah.After almost 10 years going for this, now it's, yeah- Hmm.there's nowhere else to go.I've tried.Yeah."This is it."Uh, over the last 7 years, I have tried to go other directions.I have considered just not quitting and saying, like, "I'll never play again," but just being like, "You know what?Uh, I'm, I'm good for now.I'm gonna go back and go back to work and find a c- find a good career again."Mm-hmm.And, I mean, I've thought about doing that a hundred times.And every time I think about it, theI just come back to where I always end up, which is back with the music.It keeps pulling me back.Hmm.Mm-hmm.So now I've, I've given up, and I'm just like, "Okay.I will serve, I'll serve this master for now."Well, I, and I'd like to talk about that a little further.Uh- Sure.This is perfect because this is the idea of this podcast is to-show people examples and give people some awareness and understanding of how to find out who they are, find out what their purpose is, and be able to maybe deal with their inner emotions, inner demons, distractions, and then find the alignment and the path to be able to turn that into power and expression- Hmm.and really find their own path.And you have done that, so I think I'd like to talk about that so people can maybe learn.You know, from example of the story, just, you know, where did youLike, the falling down part, like before you really found this path- Hmm.like, where did, where was, like, the first step where something started to change, maybe just for a little bit?And you went, "Oh, what is this new thing?Maybe this is"- Yeah."this is better."And maybe you should walk me through maybe that first step or first couple steps of that process for you.Yeah, I think, um, there's so many places to point back to.I mean, we can go back to the first time I heard Michael Jackson, but, like- Yeah.let's go way further in.I mean, basically, I think what started to change was I would pick up the guitar.I had an acoustic, I have, still have an acoustic guitar.I used to pick it up, and then I would put it down, and I wouldn't pick it up again for 6 months.And then I'd pick it up after 6 months, and then I'd put it down, and I wouldn't pick it up for 4 months.You can see where I'm going now.Yeah.Eventually, it got to a point where I couldn't go a month without touching it.I couldn't go a week without touching it.Okay.I couldn't go 3 days without t- y- you know, it justAnd then in 2018, I found myself on conference calls on the guitar, like, conference calls for m- I was working.I had a full-time corporate job- Yeah.and I'm on a conference call with my boss or whoever, and I'm sitting there playing my guitar, and I was doing that more than I was working.Now I could say it 'cause it's been 7 years.I mean, at the time, I wasn't gonna tell anybody, but like- Yeah.that's what was going on with me, and I started to realize, like, this is, this was something that I was doing once every 6 months, and now I can't not do it, and now I want to be doing it more than this job, so what am I gonna do?And like, I feel like that was when I really began to feel that I had something in me that needed to be expressed.I didn't know what it was.I didn't know what it was gonna look like.At first, I thought I was gonna have like some kind of business doing something of my own.I, I didn't really even know it was gonna be music- Yeah.necessarily.But, um, yeah, so I was playing music more than I was doing anything else, and so I kind of was faced with a choice.I felt in my heart that I wanted to go this other way, even though I knew that it was going to be very, very difficult.I wasn't going to have much money.I would have to give up 6figure salary.I'd have to give up, uh, my, my benefits my, uh, I'd have to give up my, my title and who I think I am.Mm-hmm.And all of the security, and also I had to give up, which I didn't know at the time, uh, a lot of, um, validation that was coming by way of just being a normal person in the world and, like, having 6 figures, and everyone's like, "You're doing great."You know, once I left all that, then who are you to anybody?Who are you?Who, who was I to myself, and who was I to anybody else?All of that stuff that I became, that I was so wrapped up in went away overnight.And so- Hmm.uh, I was left with myself.So long tangent around, but to answer the question, it's, I just was compelled to keep picking up the guitar.I didn't want to be, but I was compelled to, and then it turned out to just take over.So it sounds like getting this gu- did you purchase the guitar or- I had it, yeah.I bought a guitar in 2008, uh, this guitar I'm talking about, and it wasn't for 10 more years that I would finally say, "Okay, I'm gonna really do this."Ah.So, so in that interim, in that 10 years, the guitar just sat around and you- Yeah.But it was just kind of there, and it called to you every once in a while?Yes, especially late at night when I would be drunk, you know- Yeah.when my, I would be 24, and home from the bar at 2:00 AM, and all my friends are there."Okay, now's a good time to play because I'm drunk and ev- and it's late."Yeah."Sure."It's easy.Da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na.And then put it away, and then wake up the next day and be like, "What is that thing?I'm not gonnaLet me go back to work."Yeah.It just, it was, itI didn't realize it at the time, but when I look back, it was soI loved it so much that I couldn't handle it.That's really what was going on.It's like you love somebody- Ah.or you love something so much, you can't even deal with it, so you just put it away.So something amazing, something wonderful- Yeah, it was ama-is- It was amazing, and I could see it was amazing, but I didn't really know what to do about it, and it was making me feel all kinds of things.And again, at the time, I wasn't thinking what I'm saying right now, but my behavior of just putting it away, I know what was going on with me.I just didn't want to deal with it.So it's like, uh, looking into the light, right?It's the- Yeah.Light is just too bright.Yes.And you just can't face it, and probably, you just weren't at the stage to be able to handle that yet, and- Correct.you had some more growing to do- That's right.before that.Uh, this is something maybe that's- had become somebody else, yeah.Yeah, it's not talked about so much, is that it's not that things are right or wrong, or you should or shouldn't do, but it's like what is, what's appropriate for this moment, for the you that you are now?Right.Not tomorrow, not yesterday, but now, and that you had to go through some type of growth process, have some experiences, uh, to be able to really face that guitar- Yeah.to be able to approach it.Yeah.And, uh, because you couldn't do it for a long time doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing.Because it was difficult wasn'tit didn't mean that you didn't have the skill, or you shouldn't be doing it, or that it was a sign from God you shouldn't do it, which I think we can make that mistake sometimes of thinking, "Oh, that's not meant for me.I can't really do that.It, uh, it's not happening right now."But I think, like, leaving it, you know, in your space, you know, letting it sit there 'til y- 'til you were ready, 'til you- Yeah.'til you were cooked enough to, uh- Yeah.be able to face it.Yeah, it was constant back and forth.It's like, "Okay, I'm doing it.Ahh!Get away from me."I mean, it's like a really, uh- Yeah.it's a very, um, what's the word?Kind of dysfunctional relationship that I had with it.Yeah.I mean, it was fine.I had the problem.Yeah.It was just sitting there.Wasn't a- But I, I could remember timesActually, it was even when I was living with, with you guys at the Miramar- Yeah.back in the 2020, or maybe it was before that.Maybe 2016, where I would just, ugh, put the thing, like, "Fuck this thing," and just pu- I couldn't deal with it.Yeah.And then, like, 3 days later, I'm picking it up, and I'm having a m- s- you know, it's, "Oh, this is great."And then I can't get chord."Why can't I play this chord?Fuck, fuck this thing," and put it away again.Yeah.Like, that was the pa- that was the cycle and the pattern, um, for years.So it's the- Years.it's the guitar's fault, right?Yeah.And I actually do remember that when I was a kid, and I, uh, had a saxophone, and I messed around with, you know.I was in12 years old or something, but, you know.Yeah, I would blame the saxophone for the, for the problem.And of course, when I'm looking back, it's like, I had so much emotion in me that was coming up while I would be playing that I just didn't know what to do with it.That's what was happening.Yeah.I mean, it was- Oh, yeah.I was feeling love, and I was feeling connection, and I was feeling, you know, all the horrible things that they tell you to stay away from.Like- Yeah.It's like, that's what I was feeling.That's what was coming up.That's why I would throw the guitar away.And for people that are, might be listening, they say, "Well, that doesn't make sense.Wh- If you love it, why would you"That's the whole game for me.It's been- Mm-hmm.trying to get to tr- just that, is justWell, I think, well, umWell, yeah, you've had to build a channel for it.You had to be able to, uhYeah, we don't think about that that much.We think about maybe building up endurance physically at the gym.Hmm.But maybe not building up endurance to love, or endurance to, uh, pleasure, or endurance to, you know, being able to be creative.Right.And people will think they can't love, or they can't be creative.Maybe they just have to go slow with it.Yeah.And, uh, don't, don't throw it away.Don't give up on it, you know?Let it- Right.let it in.Yep.And 'cause it's intense, and I think it's also a little overlooked of how, how powerful love can be, and how it's not just betw- in a partnership or in a relationship.It's something that's in-lots of different things.Yeah.Not just in a romantic relationship or a family relationship, but in, you know, relationship with a guitar.Yeah.You know?And definitely with creativity and, uh, allowing that to, to flower on its own, at its own speed, take its own pace, or let you- Yes.you take your own growth pace, right?Yeah.SoYeah.It's go- it's gonna hap- i- i- it- it's going at its own pace.Mm-hmm.There was nothing I coulda done anyway to make it have gone any faster.It's likeYou know, it's likeI don't know if you've everYou know, if you could go for a long walk or if you go for a run or whatever, those first couple of steps sometimes are a little, like, "Ugh," a little icky-like.Yeah.Yeah, absolutely.You gotta get the blood going and everything.It's kinda what it was like.There's just, there was no way through it.You ha- or there's no way around it.Yeah.There'sOnly to go through it.UmYeah, and I think, um, success is similar.There's a lot ofThere's a, a couple related things, um, that I'll just throw out to you and you can talk about them.Uh, but what it's making me think of is the idea of freedom and the idea of success- Hmm.which are related, and they're 2 difficult things for most people.And I think it's not always understood how difficult freedom is, how incredibly hard it is.People aren't free because it's hard.Yeah.It's hard- Yeah.to do.A- at every level.Yes, it is.And I think in real success, and I don't just mean having a bunch of money 'cause you can be born with that, right?So that's not really success.Uh, but being successful of, as a person, who you are with your art or your business, whatever it is, um, that's hard too.That's difficult.And I think they go hand-in-hand, and I have an inkling of that.Uh, maybe you can just speak to that.What's your experience with that?So, it's really good.Um, it's something that nobody ever really talks about very much, about how difficultLike, everybody wants to be free, but, like, do they really know how?I mean,Freedom is difficult on many levels for me because, 1, from the age of whenever, we're all trained to be on a path.You're told what to do from the minute you're born.Yeah.Y- I mean, parents, school systems.And I'm not saying that there's, that they're all to be blamed for this.I'm just saying that that's just the way that our society is set up.WeYou're trained to go to school, and then you gotta graduate high school to go to college, and you gotta do that to get to somewhere else.There's, it'sThe path is laid out in front of you, okay?This isSo for me- Yeah.w- before, uh, the path was laid out.I knew what my job was.I knew what my boss needed me to do.I knew what my clients needed me to do.I knew how to make money.I knew how to get the right commission check.I knew how to make, uh, my employees happy.Like, all of that's laid out.As soon as all that was gone, then I had to figure out, "What the hell do I do with all of this time that I have?"UmAnd it was, and still is, very challenging.Uh, thereYou know, I have more things going on in the calendar nowadays than I did in the beginning of this.But, uh, you're left with yourself.I'm left, I was left with myself.And I'm left with parts of me that, uh, uh, I didn't know about because they were covered up by all of the structure and all of the, um, roadmaps of the way I should go.And then suddenly, when you look and you have nothing to do, at one moment it's like, "Oh, that's all I want.I just wanna f- I just wannaI don't wanna do anything anymore."Well, eventually, you'll have to do something, and then at some point, you'll have- Yeah.you'll have to get back to it.And then what are you gonna do?Like, I went through this.Um, it's hard to know what to do.just on the most fundamental level, it's hard to know what to do every day when you have nobody telling you what to do.It actually is.Yeah, yeah.If you don't have a boss and a quota or a client pushing you to do something, uh, then it's you and then you'll see how motive- self-starting you are.I mean, I thought I was, and then I realized that I wasn't and it would have to be something that I would have to learn how to do.So I've figured out along the way how to, uh, structure my time appropriately and build the right system so that I can be successful within it.But freedom for me has come from working really hard.Let me say, use a better phrase.Like, being really dedicated to my craft makes me feel free.So like, the busier that I am, when I'm not busy, that's where I feel the most free.Does that make sense?So for instance, like, um, some people might say, "I want freedom because I just wanna be able to do whatever I want whenever I want all day long."I mean, that's at least what I used to think, like I just wanna do whatever I wanna do.Okay.you have to figure out what you wanna do.You have to figure out who you are still.I think that's what I'm trying to get at here, is like- Yeah.I'm getting a little off tangent, I feel like.L- Well, yeah.I take it- me back in.I'm, uh, uh, a bit, 'cause it's a cultural thing and I think a lot of us go through this, right?Most, most, uh, most people in the United States anyway, and probably Europe as well, that, um, there's theIt, it's making me think of the film Office Space where he just wants to do nothing.Oh, yeah.Right?Yeah,He just wants to get out there and do nothing and that really, the film really resonated with people.Yeah, yeah.Right?And for a reason, 'cause they don't like what they're doing.Yeah.And I think most people don't like what they're doing.Some people do, the lucky people do, right?Or, or maybe they're not lucky, maybe they just worked really hard to get there.But, um, I think the doing nothing you, as you were saying, is like kind of the first, your first reaction 'cause you don't wanna do, you don't wanna do what you're being told to do anymore 'cause it's not really what you wanna do.But you have no idea what it is you wanna do 'cause you've never had any time to explore it- Yeah, that's'cause you've always been doing what you were told.Exactly.So exiting that programming, exiting that path is hard.Yep.Because really in a perfect world, someone would've raised you to be on another path originally and it wouldn't have been as hard.But now in the middle of your life, you gotta switch paths, really, to become free to find who you are, you've gotta switchY- you're gonna change your whole life to some degree.Doesn't mean you can't have a job.Doesn't mean you can't work, but- Yeah.yeah.um, you have to have another focus that's your main focus.Yeah.You know?And you gotta find some creative way to marry the paying the rent with that, which is not easy to do.Oh, it's hard.It's incredibly hard.Really hard.Right?So, but, but it can be done, you know, and lots of people do do that.And, uh, it's, I think, a place where a lot of us get stuck because, "Well, I don't have time."You know?Like the, the, uh, scarcity mentality, you know."I don't have enough money, so I don't have enough time to go out.I have to spend all my time getting this money, so now I don't have enough time to do other things and I'd love to, you know, whatever it is, you know, make canoes but-" Mm-hmm."I don't have the time."Right.So it's being able to find, find that time 'cause it's there somewhere and, um, maybe you can talk about like how, how did you, how did you find the time?How did you get through that?Well, um, I mean, okay, so like on a very, very practical level, I had a bunch of money saved up after I left my corporate job so that I wasAnd I sold the house, so I had a little bit of money at least to start.Okay.Yeah.I had a, I had a little bit of money- Yeah.that, where I could afford to not employ myself for a while and then it ran out.Okay.Yeah.And then I had to work again but that's, that, we'll get to that.But at least for the first year or 2, I didn't really have to think about working and- Okay.That's good.That gave me freedom to build a system that I'm still using to this day.Uh, it gave me some space.I, I also had family and I had friends that offered up places for me to crash and to be and to stay, whether it was here, at your guys' house in Hawaii.My parents were generous in letting me crash with them for long periods of time without having to pay rent.Hmm.So I had resources in relationshipsthat allowed me to do what I was doing.I mean, the, that's a huge part of it.Um, if I had to pay rentOh, I'm also single and I don't have any kids.I mean- Okay.And that's sor- sort of by design.I mean, IThat's a whole nother topic, but I wanted to go a different direction in my life, and so I've known that if I was gonna have marriage or children, that that would be a different path.And maybe that's for me in the future, but right now, it's not.So I have f- freedom of time because I'm alone, I don't have to worry about raising a family.I had money saved, so I had a ramp or a runway- Mm-hmm.to kind of get me going.Um, and I also am very, uh, I'm kind of, um, scrappy and sort of, like, I could, at least in the beginning, I was able to live on couches and- Mm-hmm.m- know, sleep on a mattress on the floor and, like, just, I don't, I didn't need a lot of stuff.I still don't.Yeah.So it was easy for me.I, I'm fine cooking most of my meals.I don't have to go out to dinner.I was, I went years without having a car out here.Um- Yeah.So just sacrifices and things that I've made along the way so that I can have the time.Yeah.It's sacrifices.I had to give up stuff.I had to give up comforts and I had to do it.Um, it worked for me because the way that my life was, I was able to do that.I realize that for some people, they have kids after they realize where they need to be, so they gotta put food on the table and that's a very difficult thing to do.UmYeah.Fortunately, I'm not in that situation.So, um, does that answerYeah.Um, it, you, you touched on something that I'd, I'd like to focus on for a little bit is, uh, the idea of community, and which is something I've, uh, spent a lot of time, you know, thinking about.And in our current society, there's kind of a, a lack of community- Mm-hmm.I think, uh, from what most of the people of the world have had historically.And I think traditionally, humans have lived in societies and groups and have supported each other.Yeah.And there seems to be or is, um, the concept that I grew up with, that you need to make it on your own.I think this is especially true in America with the John Wayne by your bootstraps, do it by yourself thing.And I think, um, I think that's a kind of not fair picture of the world, and I don't think really anybody is making it on their own.They've had help somewhere.Absolutely.If they're pretending and saying they did, they're not telling you the truth.They had some help somewhere.They're just not mentioning it.100%.They're claiming other things.And then there seems to be this expectation though because of that story, the story in our culture that you need to be alone, people have actually become broken alone.Yeah.You know?And there's not as much support.There are communities, of course, but there's not as much support, not for a lot of people, a lot of families, you know.Maybe they have kids and need 2 incomes, but that's it, there's no other support beyond that.Right.Right?And whereas, you know, a community is, you know, at least 30 people, right?So, uh, I think that has helped people thrive throughout history and it's, uh, the, that breaking down has really created some, some problems for a lot of people.And I think it's, uh, it makes freedom more difficult.Yep.And I think this image, this story of the lone guy going out alone, the lone gunman or whatever, whatever the, that, that single person image is, the hero, um, isthink this image, this story of the lone guy going out alone, the lone gunman or whatever, whatever the, that, that single person image is, the hero, um, isAnd that being freedom, I think does a disservice to most people.I mean, there, there maybe a small number of individuals for who that's their path.Right.But for most, most of us, I think it's community, and the way we become free is through support of others.I mean, do you have anything to- Yes, 100%.add?Um, I mean, I, I'm one of these people that, you know, if you ask me, uh, "Do you like to be alone?"My answer is yes.I, I'm one of the people in the world that does like solitude and to be alone.However, I've learned over the years that there's no way to do anything alone.And I have had friends along this path, friends and family both along this path, that have helped me financially, that have given me food, have given me shelter, have given me love, have given me support.Without it, I don't know what happens.Probably I'm not here.I'm probably- Yeah.at best, back in a corporate job, like in the best case scenario.Yeah.Um, and everybody has gotten help, the richest of the rich.It starts with your mom, who gave birth to you.Yeah.And gave you milk and then food.Like unless you were given birth and then put on the street, and then as an infant- Yeah.you somehow survived, which I don't think is possible.So somebody helped you somewhere.Um, I've had nothing but support.I also have parents that happen to be very supportive of me and they, you know, they buy into what I'm doing.So it's just, I have support.Um, but one has to be open to that support too.And I'veThere's been times where I've been too proud or maybe, you know, like, oh, I don't want to take the help, or I feel bad taking the help, or- Mm-hmm.I'm no good, so why would you wanna support me?I mean, that's all part of this process of becoming free and finding who you are, is like, are you gonna let people love you?You're not?Yeah.Okay.If you're not, then that means you're probably not loving yourself.And if you're not loving yourself, I mean, you're gonna have to deal with that at some point.So every artist, every musician, every performer that I love and follow has had at least 20 examples of people that have come around and helped them.I mean, I don't know of anybody that hasn't.Even the most lone wolf of people, I love Henry Rollins, he's kind of a lone wolf guy, but- Yeah.when you look at his story, he's had nothing but people that have come along somewhere to say, "Hey, you want to do this?I'll get, you know, I'll help you get over here."You need it.Yeah.There's no way around it.And we are living in a world right now where it's like, unless you can live off grid alone and literally produce your own power and get your own water and hunt your own food, and there's like 100 people that can really do that in the world, uh, you need stuff.I've tried to do the, the lone wolf thing out in the woods.Uh, it's not sustainable.Uh, for me it wasn't anyway.So yeah.Yeah.It'sI am, I am very much a product of the support that I've had along the way, and the community.Yeah.I think, think we all are.And, uh, even most successful famous people, people that are, you know, in the stars, people in the lights, billionaires, wealthy, powerful people, almost all of them started out rich.Hmm.Some didn't.There are some exceptions.But this, I think this false narrative that, uh, there's these succ- all these successful people who, uh, didn't have any help.Yeah, that they were just- Is, is, ridiculous.scrubbing pots and pans from the start and thenYeah.Yeah.And I think- Some people, some people were, but yeah, most people weren't.Yeah.And, and you can tell me if you think this is, is, is off or not, but, uh, I think, like the, maybe the lack of community and support and the lack of, uh, resources there are for people is definitely a challenge.But in my mind and in my feeling, the bigger problem is ourselves, the belief that we can't have help, the belief that we can'tthat we're ashamed to take help in some way.Mm-hmm.That will make it impossible.It may be- Yeah.difficult in the w- real world, right?Or maybe challenges around it.But if we don't participate in it, it's not gonna happen.So, and I think that really is a dead end for a lot of people whose lives really don't go anywhere because they don't want to take the help, because they've been told that they're not supposed to, that it's- Right.not the right thing.And I think that, that belief on its own, I think is, can be very damaging.And you fr- you agree with that?Uh, I do agree and I still think that people, I mean, and I'm included in this, that say, "I'm not gonna take the help."Well, you're taking it in all these other places then.You're, you're just not aware of the fact thatI mean, how about being able to drive a mile to go get groceries?I, I mean, I, you know, it's justIt's all right here for you.I mean, it'sThere's help around us all of the time.It's just we're picking and choosing.It's very, it's a very ego trip thing to pick and choose where you think you're, umOh, it's okay if I get help here but not there.Yeah.I mean, it's all justYeah, like, nobody can give me money, but I'm going to use the roads, and I'm going to drink the clean water.A lot of people work to make that happen.Yeah, there's a lot- So, yeah.there's a lot of assistance going on all of the time.Um, right, clean water out of the tap.Flushing toilets.I mean, it's pretty luxurious.Yeah.Yeah, yeah, it didn't just come from nowhere.It took people to do that.yeah, shifting gears a little bit-um, you mentioned Henry Rollins.So, um, you can maybe talk about how you got interested in him or maybe some of your other influences musically or in life.Yeah.Um, well, let's see, you know, I mean, Rollins, I, I, uh, was introduced to by very c- close mutual friend of ours.Um, and I listened to him talk.He was doing a, a podcast, and he was talking, and it just kind of, uh, at the time, really, really struck me right between the eyes, just what he was talking about.He was talking about a lot of the stuff we're talking about, just about being an independent artist and what that means.And I, at the time, hadn't fully pushed off into it, but I was picking up the guitar every 3 or 4 months, you know?Hm.I was in that, like, kind of state.So his influence on me is more, less musically and more just as an independent artist trying to make it in the world, and again, independent meaning not that he's not taking help, but like, he's publishing his own books.He's publishing his own podcasts.He's DI, do-it-yourself, DIYing everything.Yeah.Um, and maybe his stuff is not, um, for the popular crowd.Maybe it's not like all mainstream.Not everybody wants to hear or read his books or listen to his spoken words or whatever.Uh, but his attitude towards, um, being of service, being in service to the art and his dedication to his craft is what inspired me.That's what got my flame going.Because I had that in me, and then when I heard him say it, I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's, that's how I feel."He was the first to put words to it.Hm.UmOkay.And so he's just been a fierce, uh, independent guy for me to follow.He justHis attitude is in service to something so much bigger than him.It's always about the music.It's about the art.It's about the audience.And that's the best advice that I've heard, is just getting to the place of service, turning, you know, turning yourself over to the music and turning it over to the muse or to whatever, to the creative force.He's been instrumental in that.Um, other, other influences though, I mean, you know, musically, um, Jim Morrison and The Doors were probably one of my first, like, har- like heavy rock bands that I used toI forgot to mention- Yeah.that earlier, but yeah, when I was really young, like 9, 10, 11 years old, I was listening to The Doors.And- Hm.I know you're a Morrison fan as well.Yeah, yeah, as well.Um, but his energy, this like, umBreak On Through, uh, there's a lot of yelling in that song.He's like very aggressive.I mean, I remember hearing that song for the first time.It just blew me away.Um, the sound of the organ that they would use for the bass line was very intriguing to me as a kid.It kind of had like a circus feel to it.Mm-hmm.You know, it's, uhAnd, and his poetry and his voice.Um, so musically, I'm very influenced by Jim Morrison, vocally.It's just, he's kind of one of the first vocalists that I obsessed over, so it's impossible for me to not try to sound like him a little bit when I sing, even though I don't.I'm just saying, it's like-he, he's in there a little bit.And then Frank Sinatra too was another one, who was one of Jim Morrison's huge influences, was Frank Sinatra.And- Yeah.Rollins was influenced by Morrison.I mean, they're all connected, and so, um, I can kind of see my lineage of music.It's energy, people that had a lot of energy, and, um, had a very unique sound to their voice just was really, really attractive to me, and still influences me to this day.Pushing, pushing a lot of energy out is, like, something that I find very attractive.Um, and, uh, Iggy Pop would be probably the other huge influence wh- who's another just incredible performer.I think as a performer, I'm inf- I'm inspired and influenced by him the most because he delivers a version of himself on stage that is justI mean, he's 78 years old and he still runs out there with his shirt off and he's jumping all over the place.And if you don't know him without any context, you just think he's some crazy old guy with scoliosis up there, but he's-a force, and his energy and his, "I don't give a fuck, I'm going out there to give it all I've got," that's what I love.It's the attitude.And I just actually read a quote this morning from Miles Davis, and he said, "20% of music is the note you play.80% is the attitude of the motherfucker making that note."Hmm.I love that.Wow.Yeah.That's Miles Davis.Yeah.I like that.It's his attitude.And then, you know, Henry, Morrison, Iggy, attitude.They're just fiercely independent, um, and just, uh, they're, they're comfortable giving it all on stage, and if that's their last performance, they're okay with it.Hmm.That's kind of- And I guess-speaks to me.Yeah.Absolutely.The, umI like that.TheWould you call, like, the attitude, just to maybe give it a couple- Yeah.other names.Oh, yeah.Is, like, uh, kind of expressing your real self, your authentic self, who you really are?Yeah.I- Maybe the courage to do that brings with it- Yeah.a lot of power?It's courage.It'sThat's it.Yeah, it's courage.It's being courageous to just bring yourself.That's what I mean, I think.Yeah.When I say attitude, that's how I feel.Yeah.It's like the courage to just bring it.Bring yourself.For me, that's what it means, to bring myself- Yeah.to have the balls and the courage to stand up thereExcuse me.and, and fully bring it.But that's after, uh, at least a decade of deep figuring out of who I am to bring.Yeah.IfBefore you can bring it, you gotta figure out what you got to bring.Absolutely.Yeah, that's, that's the first, one of the first steps, right?Yeah.Is to, uhPart of that process, even when you pick up the guitar, maybe it calls you, you gotta figure out who you are, right?To be able to-not just be able to mechanically play it, but play it with some power, with some level of success.Yes.You know?However you define that.Yeah.To let your heart- Yes.pour with it.To play, to be and play heart open.Oh, that's fucking hard.It's really hard 'cause it's scary.Yeah.You, you know?You're up there.Even if it's an open mic with 10 people, you'reEverybody's looking at you, and you're up on the stage.You're most of the time standing, like, above people.Yeah.Like, the stage is usually higher.Sometimes it's not.And you're now gonna show what's inside of you.You know, we all go around, um, grocery shopping, getting an oil change.We're all just, "Grr."Yeah.But once you get up on stage and you, you're singing a song or r- reciting a poem, okay, now all of a sudden, this is real.Ani DiFranco, who's another, uh, influence of mine, amazing singer-songwriter, she said, "My job as a performer is to beis to continue to take off my clothes," figuratively speaking, uh, "is to just be as naked as I possibly can be on stage.And if, if I still have a layer, then I haven't gone deep enough."Like- I love that.That's beautiful.It almost makes me cry actually.Like, that's what Iggy does, that's what Morrison did, that's what Henry does.It's allIt's, there's a, the ability to have the guts and the courage to love yourself enough to be able to stand up there and be like, "Here's what I've got."I think that's why we love music and we love the arts.Why?Yeah.Because we have these artists that have sacrificed their egos to just show you who they are.It'sWithout that, what would it be?Yeah, I think, um, most of us probably have trouble just showing ourselves to our closest friends or our partners.There mayMost of us maybe don't even show our true selves- Probably not.to our, maybe the people that are closest to us.So to show that to strangers and to large groups of strangers is kind of a, an epic accomplishment.I thinkAnd perhaps maybe it, it's much harder, but maybe in a way kinda helps you get there faster, right?It does give you a framework to do it in, to be able to, you know, take off your armor, take off your- Yeah.allow people to see who you are.Yeah.Um, I don't know if that'sFor some people, it's easier to do that on the stage than it is, like, with maybe a partner.It's- I mean, I don't know how that is for you.It's true.I, I do find it easier to be on stage than it is for me to be in a room with people.Uh, and I'm still sorting through that because- Mm-hmm.on one hand, I don't wanna mess with that.On the other hand, it's like, why am I only able to be my s- full self when I'm on stage?What's going on the rest of my life?I don't know.Um, it just seems like that's the sacred space to do it.I don't know.Yeah, yeah.There's, there, there's some support there.It is a sacred space, right?Mm-hmm.People, everyone knows what that is.It has defined borders.We allIt's not it's unusual to violate that, you know?People for the most part respect it.Um, yeah, that's an interesting question of, you know, you know, maybe some of us are just meant to be up there and some aren't.I don't know.Could be.Maybe for Iggy Pop, it's, you know, his life is the life on the stage.Or Henry Rollins, it certainly seems that way.Yeah, I think some, for some people, there's no other way to go.Yeah.Like, they'reWhat are you gonna do?Is Iggy gonna sell, you know, steel buildings?Yeah.Sure.Whatever.Yeah.He's gotta be up there.Yeah, so but it's, it's, it'sI guess it's a very visible symbol or example, I should say, of, you know, being able to be who you really are.We don't always see that, and I think, uh, on some level people really resonate with that and they respect it, and can kind of get a little confused about what's going on there and their relationship to it, I think.Absolutely.And you, just talking about this is now bringing up another point going back to freedom.Freedom, this is, I was having trouble articulating this earlier, but freedom, there's different ways of thinking about it.It's like, okay, I'm free because I have a bunch of money, or I'm free because of this, thatI feel the most free when I've expressed myself completely.That's when I feel the most free.That's, that's when I feel freedom.Mm-hmm.That has nothing to, so, it has nothing to do with money, it has nothing to do with where my house is, or how many women I have in my arms, or like, none of that has anything to do with freedom for me.It's, it's when I'm expressing myself truly, typically on stage, and I feel completely free.And I think that is one of the major jobs of an artist is to be free, and then when other people see that, they're seeing a free person, and it's medicine.I mean- Yeah.you see Iggy up on stage or any of your favorite artists, hopefully that artist is really free inside of themself so that we can watch and be like, "Whoa, that's a free person."And then you're getting hit with all that energy.I mean, that's- Mm.the exchange between the artist.So, um, I feel the most free when I'm playing music when I'm on stage and when I'm expressing myself, and it has- Mm-hmm.nothing to do with money or anything.Yeah, and I think it's, um, that's fantastic.Um, I think a lot of us might look at celebrities or artists, you know, singers, this, this is, can especially happen with singers, and, um, there's a bit of celebrity and hero worship that goes on.And there's a little bit of disconnect, I think, from what the value of that is.And I think the true value, I think what you're saying is, is lies in the example of people looking at that- Hmm.you know, looking at Henry Rollins up there and be ableAnd get the message that, "This person is free.This is what they did to do it.I c-can find my own thing and be free."And it might be the same thing or it might be something different, but it's something to emulate, not to separate from yourself and worship as if this is this great thing that has really nothing to do with me.You know?Yeah.It's more it's an example for you of what to do- Yes.with your life.Oh, that's really good.Yeah.This isThis person, I mean, and there're so many amazing actors, musicians, people, you know, we've already mentioned, but, um, you know, there's so many of them out there.You know, Sam Rockwell.Hmm.Whoever it is.And be, "Hey, he's really bringing it.He's being himself."Yeah."He's doingThis is authentic."Yes."This is real.How can I getHow can I do a little bit of that?"Exactly.Not the, "I'm not just gonna walk onto a stage and be famous," right?But- Right."How can I, uhMaybe I'll just dance by myself a little bit."And, like, Sam Rockwell, for example, he invented all those moves, right?Yeah.He'sIt's really authentic.Yes.He's not even doing any, someone else's moves.He's just making them up.And maybe I can sit in a room and make up some dance moves by myself.Just even that step, I'm thinking, is, you know, that's one step closer to being yourself, to being free.Yes.You know, and you can, you could go from there and, uh, I don't know.Do you have more thoughts- Yeah,around that, about that process?Well, uh, um, yeah, I think it gives permission to everybody watching that, to be free.Um, and I think also it's like, this is a little bit more metaphysical, but it's changing the person's reality who's watching it.Hmm.Because when you have a, an artist you're wa- whether it's painting or a film or a record or performance or stand-up comedian or whatever, you are, you, the audience, is, um, transported into that artist's world for the time being.Yeah.Like, they are bringing th- what they're seeing to the stage, to the film, to the screen, whatever, and now it's real.It's the person that's never seen, uh, somebody go crazy on stage, "I've never seen that before."So, th- so to them, let's say there's a human being that's never seen somebody go crazy on stage and just go wild.Yeah.So their reality is such.Now they see this performance where this person just gives it everything they have.Mm-hmm.Now they've seen something.I mean, it's like seeing, uh, you know, Mount Everest.You've s- Yeah.It's like you're seeing a greatIt's like seeing one of the wonders of the world.It blows your mind and it now becomes a possibility for the, for the listener and for the viewer.Because that's what, that's the job of the artist.So,I mean, that's, when I, when I think about when I'm performing, the band that I'm in, I care so much about what people in the audience are feeling.Hmm.And that's why I work so hard to make sure that I'm prepared because I, even though we're a relatively small, uh, band, I care about the people that are there.They've paid money.Yeah.They probably got Ubers and babysitters to be there.And I'm working really hard to be in really good physical shape and emotional shape so that I can hopefully blow a couple people away so that their life improves.Yeah.Because my life has improved by watching Iggy and by watching Jim Morrison and by watching Rollins and by watching Sam Rockwell and Danny Elfman or whoever else.Yeah.My life's better.better because they brought in their reality into my world and I'm like, "Oh, that's possible?Well, life's better."I mean, it's like somebody introducing youI- Yeah.It's like, imagine if you never had chocolate and then somebody 30 years into your life just like, "Here.Here's chocolate.""Whoa.What's this?"That's what it's like.Yeah.It's fantastic.Yeah, bringing those people justYeah, it's my experience as well that, um, boy, my life just wouldn't be the same without some of these people, without Bob Dylan.Thank God for- Would be?Yeah.Thank God for- Youmaniac musicians and artists that- Yeah.have gone all the way.Yeah.Yeah.That's crazy.And, uh, like, what, like, best case scenario, um, whether it's your recorded music or your stage shows, what, best case scenario, what, what would you want some of the audience members, what do you want them to take away?How is it going to affect them?You know, what kind ofI really want them to feel, um, impacted.Um, it's hard to say, like, what I want 'cause it's like it's really up to the audience to decide how they're gonna feel- Yeah.aboutBut, like, I prepare the way that I do with the focus that I do because I really want to impact somebody's life.I want their night to be really good.Like- Mm-hmm.I want them to go out and then be in the car and be like, "Whoa, that was like, that guy really had a lot of energy."I, I- Mm-hmm.because that's what moves me.I don't know.I, all I can do is, like, hopefully provide whatever I'm getting fed by all the people that I love to watch.Yeah.And everybody's gonna have their own way to get fed, right?I can't speak for them, again, but like, yeah, I, I want them to see something that maybe they've never seen before.Maybe they've never seen a lead singer go to the end, to the edges like I will go or something.Mm-hmm.And it's not even that I have the best voice in the world, but it's just about the energy and the attitude and the confidence and the courage, rather, to be up there- Yeah.and to just show myself.I think that can impact somebody just in itself.That's what I wanna do.Yeah.That's my goal every time I'm up there is to m- m- give them something that somehow changes them in some particular way.Maybe they don't even know how it did.Yeah.Be- Because they saw something they never saw.Be an inspiration or, or just an influence of any kind.inspires them to do something that they wanted to always do, or it takes their mind off of their sick kid or their job or whatever.I mean, it could be just getting their mind off of the drone of, like, everyday life- Hmm.which, again, is what we turn to artists for, I think, right?get fed that nutrition.Yeah, yeah, yeah, that we can't always just, uh, create ourselves.Right.And maybe, um, maybe you could talk a little bit about, um, performing live, and like, theYeah.Have you had a struggle, I presume you have, to be able to be authentic with that, to be able to, and- Yeah.I think you talked about layers before.Is that a process you've gone through and like, what's that struggle like?Okay, good question.Um, yeah, I think, um, I think I've had, I think I do have a natural ability to be on stage, in that I don't, like, I know what to do once I'm there.Yeah.I've never struggled that, with that.It's everything else.It's the days and hours leading up to it that still terrify me, um, that I, and I'm working on.Um, and doing it enough to feel comfortable to show my fro- f- I mean, it's, you could physically get up and stand up on stage and then do a performance and then go home.But like, how naked did you get?Like, w- how- Mm-hmm.deep did you go?Like, and I realize also that I can only go as deep on stage as I'm willing to go with myself,Like, the stage doesn't really get me deep.I have to do the, I have to go deep with myself.Ah, okay.So if I can get there here, in my practice space, then I know that I can get there on stage.But I, I typically won't get anywhere unless I've gotten to it first.Like, if I can't be safe and get to that spot with myself alone, I won't get there on stage.Okay.So part of my process is to, like, really go deep with myself, and then when I'm on stage, um, I can g- I can go deep in front of people.If I, if I'm like, "I'm gonna wait till I get on stage to get there," n- it doesn't work.Not for me anyway.Yeah.Some people don't need to practice and they go on stage and a switch happens.Like, uh, Jackie Gleason was like that famously.He never practiced, he never rehearsed.Yeah.I mean, when you watch old episodes of Honeymooners- Yeah.you can see that he never rehearsed.Yeah.But, and I don't mean that in a, as a jab, he just, he made some mistakes, but like, what you v- walk away with with Gleason was his energy.He was justfireball of energy.I have to get to a very, very intimate space with myself before I get onto stage, uh, to guarantee that I can get to that on stage.Um, the other part of your question was, uh, uh, other struggles like, yeah, I, I, my, I remember my first open mic, I was basicallyLike, I'd, I'd get off stage, and I'm like, "Wait, d- was-" Okay."was just up there?"So it took me years to be present while I would be performing.I could go up and perform, and then somebody would film it and show me that I was up there, but like, "Oh, yeah, I remember that."But, like, I would get off and be like, "I don't know what I just did."So it'Cause I was so scared and just- Oh.it was just adrenaline that was fuelingSo it took me years to get grounded, and I can, like, actually be on stage and, like, take a breath, and be like, "Oh, I'm on stage.My feet are touching the ground.There's people looking at me.I'm gonna now sing."That's, that's taken years.So it, uh, didn't just come automatically, even though you were- I had to-kinda meant to be there.Yeah, everything else had to be worked at.I had to work on being able to do it sober, without, like, assistance of alcohol.Yeah.I mean, it's easy when I'm 22, and it's 2:00 in the morning, and I have n- I've had 9 whiskeys, and now I'm gonna sing a karaoke song.All right.It's probably not too hard then.But, like, how about if it's 7:00 PM and you're gonna sing a song you've never sang before in bunch of strangers?Mm-hmm.And you don't have any alcohol, and it's just you?That's taken me a very, very long time to get, to get- Yeah.comfortable with.That makes sense.Yeah.That's familiar.There, there's a lot of things I did in my, as a kid, early 20s, that I had to then relearn as an adult to do without alcohol.Without the assistance.Yeah.Yeah.Without that help.It's a whole, uh, whole different process.It is.And I think you have to do it without to, uh, for it to be real.Yeah.Or to, uh-to be authentic.Yeah.To be you.Absolutely.know.Yeah.So now I feel m- much more comfortable, uh, going into things than I used to, but I'm still, I still getIf I have a show coming up, I get pretty nervous for- Hm.a few days before.Yeah.I mean, I justI care so much about it, so I just, I put a little, I put a lot of pressure on myself.Yeah.And sometimes that helps, but at this point, I'm much better off if I focus on just trusting that the work that I've done is sufficient.If IThat's what I'm just trying to practice.I was saying to you earlier, like, it's, you're working really hard, just trust that it's all there.You don't have to worry and then do it.Yeah.Yeah.The, the worrying is not gonna bring you there.No.So see if you can beThe more relaxed I can be physically and emotionally, the better off I am on stage.I mean, if I'm biting myin my head, then I'm not relaxed, and if I'm not relaxed, then I'm not being deeply myself.And then therefore, I'm kind of, like, not really giving the audience their, what they came for.So being relaxed, being open, keeping my heart open, and, uh, caring about the people that are watching is, um, how I've gotten better at it.Good.Yeah, I think it's, uh, probably, for most people, the creative act is better when you're relaxed.Not everyone- Yeah.but, uh, but most of us.Yeah.Um, I think, um, let's see.Did you have anything else that you wanted to share?Um, anything else we've touched on?Think I'm ready to, uh, maybe wrap it up- Yeah, I-after another question or so.Yeah.if you've got one more- Okay.maybe.Okay.So, umkinda bringing it all full circle, and, uh, you started out with these, with this, the guitar, right?You had the magic guitar that called you over time, and then you went through a process, got some support, found some time, left the old path, found the new path.Yep.Um, and that took, like, maybe we can go over what, what did it take?It took courage- Yes.for you to leave that path.It took being authentic, as we were just talking about- Yeah.on stage.It tookAnd I think one thing to talk about, or to, is being able to be yourself with yourself.Yeah.And that might be something that maybe people try and skip sometimes, or don't- Hm.realize that you need toIt can be called self-love, self-understanding.There's a lot of different ways.But, you know, being yourself with yourself and, you know, self-awareness really, just knowing who you are and going through all those different parts of you in whatever way, you know, you do that, whether it's meditation, orDid you have any techniques or ways to find out how, who you were and what's appropriate for you and how to be yourself with yourself?Yeah, it's a good, I think it's a good way to put a pin on the, or put a bow on the whole thing.Yeah.Yeah, I'm very, uh, I would say by, by nature I'm not very disciplined.It's, discipline is something that I've had to learn.And by the way, when I say discipline, I mean like, the, the true meaning of the word to me is disci- like, discipline is to be a disciple of yourself and to learn about yourself, you know?It's not just like- Oh.having some- I like that.rugged checklist.I mean, that's part of it is to have a checklist, but like, that's not really the depth of it.For me, it's like, I'm doing all of this stuff, meditating- Mm-hmm.working out, running, practicing my vocal exercises, writing in my journal, listening to podcasts, reading books, like all of those things, education.It's to learn about me.It's to become a student of me.That's my discipline.And so I got really good over these last, this last decade at building a system that has worked for me.Um, and it means that I, uhOkay, so back to answer the question directly.Yeah.Meditation, uh, was probably one of the first things that I learned how to do that has helped me, and what it did was it quieted a lot of the noise and chatter that was around my true voice.And I've been meditating for 12 or 13 years now.And, you know, probably took at least 3 or 4 years before I could sit for 20 minutes or more.I mean- Mm-hmm.at first it was just I would sit for 30 seconds, for like years.I would just, 30 seconds, a minute, 2 minutes, that's it.Okay.So first thing was meditating because it got me to get into my body, out of my head, and actually start to hear my own inner voice.That was step one.And then, if I would hear it really well, then I could write it down sometimes, so then I started journaling.So journaling, I'm pointing 'cause my journal's back there, but- Okay.I have, uh, I journal about what I'm feeling, what I'm going through.Um, yeah, it's usually how I, how do I feel?How is my heart today?And I write about that.That usually uncovers, once I'm writing, especially with pencil- Yeah.That's-then I could start to pull some stuff out.It can be a powerful tool, yeah.Yeah.Um, and then listening when I'm ready to quit.So I have, I've wanted to quit 700 times, something like that.Yeah.I'm not, and that's no exaggeration.I've probably thought about quitting and going back to what I was doing before like 700 to 1,000 times.Okay.So then what do you do when that happens?That's the third piece of it.It's learning how to get through self, my self-doubt.And, um, honestly, all I had to do was just sit with that and like not do anything.Just don't quit.Do you know what I'm saying?Like, that's how I got through that.Yeah.And it sounds easy, but when every mechanism in my being is like, "Quit because it's too hard," that becomes the first test.Mm-hmm.And everything that I'm dealing with and was dealing with, uh, was all of the stuff that's in the w- that was in the way before I was facing any of it.Before I took the leap to finally pick up the guitar full-time, there was all this stuff in the way.So of course it's gonna come up again once you make, once you chooseIf you're, if, I was gonna go left or right, I've been going left.Okay, now I'm gonna go right, but I'm so scared.Okay, now I'm gonna go right.Well, guess what?If you go right, you're still gonna have voices come up and be like, "You should go left again.You should go left again."Because for 20, 30 years, I kept going left.Yeah.Does that make sense?Am ISo-uh, you were in the pattern of quitting?Yeah, I knewI'll sit quietly and I'll just wait for the storm to pass."I mean, that's how I've gotten through it.And then each time I find a part of myself, I go a little bit deeper, I understand a little bit more about who I am, and then I start to see, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, this is my path."Yeah.Until the next doubt comes along.And then I go through it again.And then I get through that, and hopefully build some, some sort of, like, deepIt's, it's just been about deepening my faith, deepening my faith in who I am- Mm-hmm.and deepening my faith in what I'm doing is the right thing to do for me.Like, um, I don't know.feel like I'm butchering this question.Okay.No, that'sNo, it's really interesting.In fact, uh, it sounds like you're pointing out that, um, dealing with your emotions, which I think is one thing- Yeah.that people can have challenges around.Mostly we don't, right?Yeah.The way we deal with them is by not dealing with them, is by, uh, going on the computer or taking some drug or distracting ourselves in some way.Um, so instead, sitting with the emotion and just waiting for it to end.The simplest method, I think, of being able to deal with our emotions is to deal with them.Sit down, feel it, don't do anything else, right?And I think that's one benefit and, uh, I think it's a little bit of a misunderstanding with meditation of, like, the blanking your brain part, um, that you're not just blanking your brain to make your brain blank.It's really about allowing the emotions to be there.And an emotion won't last for more than about 15 minutes.Mm-hmm.SoBut what does happen is your thoughts re-trigger- Right.the emotion.So it'll start it again.So you could sit there for hours and hours and hours and, because your thought keeps doing it again.So, it's allowing those thoughts to come up without taking ownership of them and letting them re-trigger you, you know?Right.Practice, which is gonna take a lot of practice, right?Right.So, it sounds like that's what you're talking about, just, uh, being able to sit- Yeah.and live with it.Yeah, to live with it, and not act on it.That's the whole thing.Yeah.Like, "I'm ready to quit?Okay, I'm gonna quit."Don't act, don't distract.Just sit for an hour- Yeah.before you decide to quit.And then I wouldThat's what I would do and then I would- Yeah.get through it.And then it's just, like, 700 more of those, I mean, for 10 years.Just every couple of weeks or every couple of months I'll have a moment of like, "Is this right?What do I do?"Um, and just sit with it.And ultimately, the more that I would do that, it would justIt's like a brick.Brick by brick, I was building a foundation of like, "No, this is who I am."Mm-hmm.Every time I would get through one of those little, what do you wanna call them, little speed bumps- Mm-hmm.it was like a brick going down.And then after a year, I've got like a little bit of a wall.It's like, "Oh, I've got this new structure," because I kept going, I kept sitting and letting the thing go, and now I'm here.Before, I was just over there.I wasn't ever going to do the thing that was gonna trigger the fear.I just stayed in my comfy life.I didn'tSo, I didn't have to deal with any thatso didn't even have to deal with that?It's like a different stress, you know?Yeah,There's a little bit of a different stress, but the stress of, like, having to deal with being an artist, I never had to deal with when I was a corporate person.Yeah, and I think that's a lot- You know?That can be a much bigger stress because it deals with who you really are, and that's hard to face.Yeah.And success, I think we touched on this earlier, isCan be harder to face than failure.Yeah.Can be harder to face than anything.What was the quote that I heard?It was like, uh, "When you finally decide to face yourself, you encounter all of the forces that kept you from encountering, um-" Hmm."yourself."No matter what we do, it's like whateverSo, for 35 years, I chose to not encounter these forces that were keeping me away from the arts.Hmm.Once I chose to encounter the stuff, or once I made the choice to, to go that way- Mm-hmm.then all of the stuff comes up.I mean, it's not like you make the choice and then it's like, "Okay, I made the choice.I'll never have to deal with that again."Yeah.You make the choice and then you have to deal with it day in and day out.I mean, it's like being on a, probably, like, being, like, an explorer on a boat traveling across the ocean.Pushing off the dock is just the beginning of the journey.I mean- Yeah.you gotta deal with, you're gonna deal with the ocean and the wind now for the next month or- Yeah.2 months or however long you're on the ocean.That's what I'm trying to get at, so- Okay.It makes sense in my head, but I can'tFor some reason, I'm not getting the words out.It's like, it's encountering all of the forces that were keeping me from being myself.Hmm.I'm dealing with that every day.I feel like most artists, Yeah.doing their art, they're dealing with that stuff.It comes up.And, and the forces you mean like, so, the, the reasons- Oh, yeah.and excuses that the ego comes up with?The, uh, yeah.The, um-inner critic, um-"What are you doing?"You know, "Y- you should get a good job."Who do you think you are?"Go back to work.You're not gonnaThis isn't gonna work out.You're gonna end up alone on the street."Um, just any- whatever, any doubts.Yeah.Th- there's the, uh, that, uh, "Who do you think you are?You can't do"Who do you think you are?Are you too big for your britches?"And all that kinda stuff.Yeah,That's real common.It's But, like, now they're just littleIt started as somebody screaming, like, right outside my window, and now it's like somebody screaming from, like, 6 or 7 blocks away.It's like, it's like, "Ah, there's that thing again."Sometimes it gets close.Mm-hmm.But I've been through it so many times, 700, 1,000 times, where it's like, "I know what this is."Um, and I just keep going forward with it.And every time I make it through one of those, like I said, it strength in something and just makes me more connected to who I am.And then I have usually more energy and things get better, usually.So it's just really learning to listen to yourself and not necessarily your ego, right?Yeah.It's learning to listen to- Your-my heart.Your heart, yeah.I mean, learning to listen to both- Yeah.but understanding which 1 Yeah.is really the way to go.Yeah, yeah.May-Perhaps I didn't say that properly.Not, not listening.You should listen to both.Listen.But make your own choice rather than- Yeah.heart, my heart seems to know what's best for me.Yeah.As much as my head likes to think it does.Yeah.My head is good at, like, f- building a schedule and, like- Yeah.f- figuring out what my workout's gonna be for the next 3 months.But my heart and soul keeps me on this path.It's keeping me from going back and getting a full-time job and putting the g- guitar back in the closet.Yeah, the analytical goes- 'Cause my heart wants this, my heart- Yeah.is pulling me along.Mm-hmm.And to circle back to the beginning of this, we're trained to not listen to our hearts.We're trained to listen to our m- our brains and- Yeah.our egos, and what our teachers tell us, and what the government tells us, or whoever.And so, especially being a man, uh, it's like, something that I've had to relearn how to listen to my heart.You don't ever hear, you don't hear a lot of men talking aboutYou don't hear big billionaires talking about how their heart's guiding them.I mean, it's, it's not- Yeah, you don't hear that th- do you?No.Yeah.You know- Not that much.Branson talks about it.There some that do, but- Yeah, yeah.um, yeah, training myself to listen to my heart has been, um, difficult but, uh, worthwhile work.Yeah.There's c- there's, there w- you know, there's a lot of parts of us, right?And, uh, the analytical brain, which we're taught to use for everything, really isn't very good at making choices.It really can't.Right.It could- So-it could, like, help you organize pros and cons, but your heart- Yeah.has toYou can't make the choice with it.Yeah.Yeah.It's allIt's, it's gotta come from in here.It's gottayour heart, your intuition, or your gut, people call it.Yeah.Gut, heart.Which Not your organ heart.Yeah, your- Yeah, yeah.your soul.Your, uh, th- the thing that's in here.Yeah.Like, the part of you that's beyond your brain calc- be- beyond the calculator.Yeah.Your intuitive senses and, uh- Intuitive, yeah.yeah, a lot of different words for it.Yeah.There's a lot of different words.Your spirit, your soul, your higher self, whatever it is.Um, but you can feel it.Yeah.And you can feel it in your chest too, in your gut.In those 2 spots, I think is where IAnd that's, that's where the choices are made, yeah.When we're not doing that, we're not really choosing.We're just following fear, I think.Yeah.Yeah.It's important.Yeah, so thank you, Greg.Hey, that was really fun.I it.Yeah.Yeah, thank you.Yeah.I really, really enjoyed our conversation and learned some stuff I didn't know about you, even after 10 years.Fantastic.So- Me too.really worthwhile for me.I've some stuff about myself.Yeah, yeah.It's been- Yeah.It's been great.Cool.Thank you so much for having me.Maybe we'll sometime.I appreciate it, and I wish you excellent, uh, a really, really blessed journey with this.I think that you're a great interviewer.You, you got me kind of connected to questions.I've never been asked some of these questions.So good luck to you, and I hope maybe, maybe I'll come back.Maybe we'll do it again.Yeah, yeah.Maybe.Sounds good.All right.All right.Thanks a lot.Peace and love.